Student mistakes

[Deimian 43]

In my short time skydiving I've seen a couple of stupid mistakes (by students) that really caught my attention.

One, somewhere between 40 and 50 years old, last season, was on his first jump. As far as I know he did ok during free fall. I was on the same load as him and I saw him landing. The turnings were painfully slow. I saw how he tried to "flare", but his arms almost didn't move when pulling down. I thought he was landing on risers and I was pretty shocked. After I approached and checked if he was ok (he was) I checked the toggles. They were still stowed. It turns out he was not pulling on the toggles, or not even the risers. He was pulling on the excess of the steering lines. He thought that the "loop" of the excess was the loop that he had to pull. Amazing. I don't think he jumped again, I asked him and he told me that he had to recover from the shock of that one jump. Technically he landed on risers, on a brake approach, on his first jump. Looks remarkable to me
Another one, a young girl, I would say around 25, jumped this weekend. Also her first jump. For some reason that I don't know she pulled at 9000ft (or so I was told). I guess she panicked when the instructor made the practice pull signal, and took it mistakenly as a pull right now. In this DZ the landing zone is huge, somewhere close to 2100 by 900 feet, without even considering most of the grass that is around the runway. She still managed to land on the trees. Maybe the upper winds blow her too far away. I don't know, but the winds were not particularly high. I saw her canopy after I landed, fold my stuff and got into the trailer to go back to the hangar. She was maybe at 3000ft, and right above the LZ. She was ok as far as I know, but the firemen were there for more than an hour trying to get her down the tree.

I can just assume that some old timers here have a handful of similar stories. I would love to hear them. Not to make fun of them, but for curiosity. I found them entertaining and shows how everyone reacts different to the same (or similar) training and situation. Also, everyone can learn a couple of things to teach their students, like making emphasis on what you are supposed to pull on.

[skinnay 0]

I don't see the point of this, or the difference between "making fun of" and "for entertainment". There's an entire incidents section to read if you want to learn something, but it seems like you want to nitpick the mistakes of others.

IMO the worst problem out of all of this are people like you, who make fun of someone for "turning painfully slow", or pulling when they were in doubt of what a hand signal meant. It's one thing to be an idiot and be a danger to yourself, but it's another to promote a culture where people are made fun of for erring on the side of safety.

[Deimian 43]

skinnay

I don't see the point of this, or the difference between "making fun of" and "for entertainment". There's an entire incidents section to read if you want to learn something, but it seems like you want to nitpick the mistakes of others.

IMO the worst problem out of all of this are people like you, who make fun of someone for "turning painfully slow", or pulling when they were in doubt of what a hand signal meant. It's one thing to be an idiot and be a danger to yourself, but it's another to promote a culture where people are made fun of for erring on the side of safety.

I think you completely misunderstood me. It is nowhere close to my intention to promote a culture based on mocking anybody else or making fun of anybody. I don't do that and I don't like when people does it.

When I say entertaining I say it in the same way as old timers talk about how gear was in the past, or how tandem masters talk about particular experiences, or how somebody talks how scary was that cutaway where a toggle from the main got entangled on a cascade of the reserve for a few seconds, or how current instructors got into skydiving and how their first experiences were, etc. All those are skydiving experiences. I like to hear skydiving experiences, hearing them entertains me because I like the sport. I think everyone likes to hear these kind of experiences, but it does not mean in any way that they are making fun of them.

I would like you to point out where exactly you get the impression that I am this kind of people. "People like you, who make fun of someone". This student was turning painfully slow. That is a fact, it was a very slow turn. I don't think I am making fun of anybody for stating that fact. If you don't like the wording I'll substitute "painfully" by "very" next time, to avoid misunderstandings. Likewise, I didn't make fun of a student for pulling when in doubt. I've just said that she did it (pulling too high), and I guessed it was because she panicked. That is all. No mocking anywhere.

I completely support you in calling out people for making fun of others, particularly students or newbies. But you choose the wrong target, I am not that kind of person, nor my message had that intention. I guess on the internet is easier to assume somebody is an asshole just out of a reinterpretation of a message.

Lastly, the incidents subforum is full of serious incidents. I've read my share of it, and I am still reading the subforum every time a new one gets posted. What I wanted to read here were skydiving experiences related to student mistakes, not serious incidents, just out of curiosity, since I didn't see anything like that around.

[godfrog 2]

Reading his posts I believe that what he defines as "entertainment" is a miss translation on his part between languages. I believe what he is Trying to get at is that he finds these things interesting to listen and think about?

Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[Quagmirian 40]

Deimian

It turns out he was not pulling on the toggles, or not even the risers. He was pulling on the excess of the steering lines. He thought that the "loop" of the excess was the loop that he had to pull. Amazing.

Does this dropzone not have hanging harnesses with dummy toggles and steering lines? Was the student not told what colour the toggles are?

[Deimian 43]

It does. I don't know if he was hung on the harness, but I was when I started my AFF course.

[Deimian 43]

godfrog

Reading his posts I believe that what he defines as "entertainment" is a miss translation on his part between languages. I believe what he is Trying to get at is that he finds these things interesting to listen and think about?

Yes, I find these things interesting to listen. I've just read the formal definition of entertainment. It was definitely not the right word. I didn't want to hear these things for my amusement, but rather to share experiences with other people, in the same way you would do it around the bonfire, without mocking anybody. I was not aware of the connotations of entertainment.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[DougH 270]

Quagmirian

***It turns out he was not pulling on the toggles, or not even the risers. He was pulling on the excess of the steering lines. He thought that the "loop" of the excess was the loop that he had to pull. Amazing.

Does this dropzone not have hanging harnesses with dummy toggles and steering lines? Was the student not told what colour the toggles are?

I am not surprised. People can process information in funny ways, even when properly instructed, and even when their knowledge is evaluated prior to their jump.

I know an experienced jumper who unstowed his brakes which were left stowed all through opening and flying his pattern, to flare just in time for landing. Pretty bad landing but this jumper has some magical rubber characteristics and was unharmed.

This occurred because someone else mentioned that you could use your risers to make turns after opening, and didn't have to unstow your brakes right away.

I know students who have chopped perfectly good canopies because under pressure they confused their instruction about the slider coming down, and it wouldn't go back up.

I have seen people come back from canopy courses that insist that they should fly their lightly loaded canopies 99% of the time with harness input because they heard during the canopy course that harness turns were one of the cleanest forms of canopy input.

People do whacky stuff! People take a huge batch of information and often only retain one piece of it, and often take that one piece of information out of context!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnMitchell 14]

DougH

People do whacky stuff! People take a huge batch of information and often only retain one piece of it, and often take that one piece of information out of context!

Super true. You have to be so careful how you say things to students. I've worked very hard make my lesson plans as unambiguous as possible. And by watching what mistakes are commonly made, you can improve your instruction by focusing on those points. Student performance is the best indicator of instructional performance. Teaching well is not easy, but it's rewarding.

[ryoder 1,381]

Strangest/scariest one I saw, (I was on the same load ~500' above the guy):

Guy had ~30 jumps. Winds came up pretty strong about the time we jumped, and I was getting only moderate penetration with a 1.3 WL. As I was looking at the peas, the guy was below me on a student canopy, backing up. Suddenly, he chopped, reserve opened
Afterward he swore to us that was what he was taught to do when strong winds are making you back up.

I went off and found an AFF instructor, told him what happened, and he sat the guy down for a talk.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[yeyo 1]

This one was a young girl, early 20s, on her first AFF jump.
Uneventfull freefall and opening. She flew alright in the holding area and at about 1000' right as she enters the landing pattern she cuts away! The RSL pulls the reserve cable and she lands downwind like nothing happened. When asked why the hell she did that she said she was going too slow and she wanted lo land already. Im not sure what the instructor told her, but she never came back.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[DSE 3]

JohnMitchell

***
People do whacky stuff! People take a huge batch of information and often only retain one piece of it, and often take that one piece of information out of context!

Super true. You have to be so careful how you say things to students. I've worked very hard make my lesson plans as unambiguous as possible. And by watching what mistakes are commonly made, you can improve your instruction by focusing on those points. Student performance is the best indicator of instructional performance. Teaching well is not easy, but it's rewarding.

This bears repeating.
This is why coaches are taught to present demonstrations perfectly and succinctly to students, as the first explanation/demonstration is the one that sticks.

I once observed an instructor who constantly 'bounced' on his toes the entire time he was in the door demonstrating setups.
The student did the same on the ground, and of course did the same thing in the air, creating an unstable exit.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Scariest thing I saw involved a father (long time jumper) and his son (obviously forced into it by his dad) hooking up the son's new canopy to his rig...kid had maybe 40 jumps or so, would play gameboy, set it down to jump with his father, and pick it back up right after landing...

Anyway, son has his rig on, dad says "okay, pull your cutaway so we can disconnect your old main and get the new one on"...kid looks at his handles, guesses, pulls silver, pilot chute launches, every's jaws drop, DZO grounded him...

[JohnMitchell 14]

JohnnyMarko

Anyway, son has his rig on, dad says "okay, pull your cutaway so we can disconnect your old main and get the new one on"...kid looks at his handles, guesses, pulls silver, pilot chute launches, every's jaws drop, DZO grounded him...

Holy $HIT! Super serious and hilarious all at the same time. I'm glad the kid got to screw that up on the ground.

[JohnMitchell 14]

DSE

I once observed an instructor who constantly 'bounced' on his toes the entire time he was in the door demonstrating setups.
The student did the same on the ground, and of course did the same thing in the air, creating an unstable exit.

And the instructor watched the ground practice and didn't correct him, right? That's frustrating.

Two things here. . .

Talking is not really teaching. Effective teaching for skydiving calls for explanation and demonstration of a task, having the student demonstrate it back CORRECTLY, then repetition for skill retention. If your students aren't doing every task on the ground that you expect in the air, they aren't being trained as well as they should.

And when they demonstrate the task, correct any and all shortcomings until they can do the task correctly. If you don't have the time to do that, don't instruct.

DSE, you taught me my first flight course for wingsuiting. You had me practice every task until I got it right (took longer than you thought it would, didn't it?). I remember quite a few corrections from you before I got it dialed in. But it paid off in the air with a great first flight. That's the way to do it.

[DSE 3]

If the student cannot demonstrate the task without any corrections, and without the instructor prompting, gesturing, or otherwise indicating an error, then the jump shouldn't happen until they can.
Nope...you didn't take longer than the average, highly experienced skydiver. Guys with a lot of jumps are more time-consuming because they have a lot of muscle memory that isn't relevant to a wingsuit jump.
And yeah, you rocked your FFC! Refer to earlier statement about instruction and student doing well.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Sounds like your DZ needs better instructors. Tell us some more stories to entertain us.

[Deimian 43]

CSpenceFLY

Sounds like your DZ needs better instructors. Tell us some more stories to entertain us.

I can't tell about all the instructors, there are quite a few. But my instructors, when I was doing the AFF 2 years ago, were awesome. I think it is just that, as Dough has said, "people do whacky stuff", but I am not in a position to judge.

[JeffCa 0]

We know there are people who just freeze up on their first jump. You know the ones who do absolutely nothing after the canopy opens? No unstowing the brakes, no inputs, just riding it to landing. It happened at the DZ where I got my first training, but years later. I saw it in the news and the reporters were all over the DZO about why their training was inadequate and the girl ended up in the trees. He shot back that she didn't do anything at all. I felt bad for him, it wasn't his fault. Knowing the LZ and how absolutely enormous it is, the only way you could get to the trees is to have frozen.

Has anybody been able to pick out, in advance, which students will freeze up? (Stupid question perhaps, because then they probably wouldn't be allowed to jump.)

And let me be the first to mention Scott Lutz.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Andy9o8 0]

JeffCa

We know there are people who just freeze up on their first jump. You know the ones who do absolutely nothing after the canopy opens? No unstowing the brakes, no inputs, just riding it to landing. It happened at the DZ where I got my first training, but years later. I saw it in the news and the reporters were all over the DZO about why their training was inadequate and the girl ended up in the trees. He shot back that she didn't do anything at all. I felt bad for him, it wasn't his fault. Knowing the LZ and how absolutely enormous it is, the only way you could get to the trees is to have frozen.

Has anybody been able to pick out, in advance, which students will freeze up? (Stupid question perhaps, because then they probably wouldn't be allowed to jump.)

And let me be the first to mention Scott Lutz.

I used to think mandatory first tandems (which some DZs require) were just a cash cow, but I'm coming to change my mind on that. This isn't the old days, when we started out on simple, docile mil-surp rounds. It's orders of magnitude easier to majorly fuck up under a square canopy than under a round. Anything to get a student past the almost paralyzing sensory overload that occurs on the first jump before he has to pilot a ram-air canopy to the ground solo is a good thing.

[shorehambeach 9]

Well here goes...

I was chatting to an AFF student (L5) who was super excited but explained his friend gave up after L1.

Why i asked ? And this is what he said (pretty much

On L1 his friend lost both instructors just after exit.

Ended up spinning on his back.

Instructors couldn't do much.

He threw his pilot chute (whilst still on his back) - it went through his legs with and he had a partially deployed main.

He cutaway (luckily his main disappeared) on his back... the reserve fired and the force (not sure how) cracked 3 ribs...

When he landed he didn't flair fully and he broke his femur.

Ok I understand his friends decision.

This was at a top DZ with excellent instructors.

[raftman 12]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet:
The worst mistake I see students make on a regular basis is they don't bring beer. How do they expect to pass??

[JohnnyMarko 1]

raftman

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet:
The worst mistake I see students make on a regular basis is they don't bring beer. How do they expect to pass??

Sometimes they aren't 21!!!Like the time I was a fresh 18 and asked the cop at the DZ to buy beer for me....everyone had a good laugh at that one

[Turboprop 0]

Then there are instances: where a CI has to make a hard decision and stop a student jumping with the notion of prevention is better than cure. Usually goes down like a lead balloon with the student: I know of cases where the student has gone to another DZ, gotten through the course and become licensed: even gone on to win medals in comps: and of course one well publicised on here where a student was stopped from AFF at one DZ, went to another where the first two stages were complimentary cost wise: didn't progress past that, instead took to social media criticising the previous DZ and later a string of apologies that had a lot of people shaking their head: in essence proving the first DZ CI right.

[pchapman 261]

To follow on to what Turboprop said --

And we've also had threads about 'when to give the Take Up Bowling' speech, because it is so hard to tell who will perform well vs. perform adequately vs. perform poorly but not dangerously, vs. actually perform dangerously.

It can be an issue of what types of errors one will have -- allowing more slower learners through may also allow more idiots through (to be pejorative about it), who may cause more risk to the DZ.

With static line, there was more of a sink or swim situation than tandem or even PFF.

In the old days, DZ's accepted more risk. There was always some static line student who would screw up. That was part of the fun on the dz, seeing what the newbies would do.

============

As for some actual student mistakes, any one who has been around for a while can come up with a bunch. Easier to just tell the tales than to work out possible corrective measures for instructors:

You'd get the students who would have no clue under canopy and sail off into the distance.

Very occasionally you'd get the student who nearly killed themself, by things like a low chop. (Some DZ's had actual fatalities do to this.) I've seen one start to cut away up high and then decide not to, leaving the metal SOS handle dangling and landing with 1 cm of cutaway cable through the locking loop.

Or the guy with a two out because some old gear unfortunately had a yellow RSL lanyard and he pulled on that instead of the yellow toggle.

At one DZ, there were 5 student chops in a day. After one got spooked, a bunch of others got spooked.

There's the chopping because "the slider didn't go up", or "the canopy didn't look right -- the colour wasn't the same as in the video.

A nearby DZ had the classic "air toggles", where a girl just put her hands in the air and pulled the left or right hand down, just like they did on the ground while practicing steering. (Maybe they didn't have hanging harnesses, I dunno.) Air toggles for air heads!

Another student just kept turning the opposite way to the commands, so the instructor just switched Left and Right and got him down safely.

A nearby DZ had a near fatality when a student chopped after having already grabbed the toggles, but forgot to let go of them again, leading to a main-reserve entanglement. (Some instructors might miss the step of telling the student what is obvious to a licenced jumper -- If you don't have a mal right away, then do your control check and find a problem, and despite being told to never let go of your toggles, please do so if doing emergency procedures.)

You'd get the low turners, the ones who got all flustered on final approach for some reason and did a panic move. I had a girl crank a 180 down low and downwind it between two parked planes.

Or there was the girl who turned the radio off under canopy because she didn't like the way the instructors were aggressively talking to her.

Very occasionally one gets the advanced student who loses track of altitude and continues down to AAD firing altitude, a little scary for the DZO!

There was the student of mine who started to climb out for his first jump with a leg strap unhooked and dangling. I hauled him back in. Straps had been checked before jump run but he must have fiddled with them.

There was the advanced student who remembered to turn on the student gear's Vigil, but only on the way up in the plane. She landed under the reserve.

Etc.!