Two out, question..

[jasonRose 0]

I am studying for my C license and reading threw the sims I found something I should already know but I don't.

Sims Regarding two canopies out...

Quote

" If both canopies are flying without interference or possibility of entanglement and altitude permits:

(1) Disconnect the RSL.

(2) Cut away the main and steer the reserve to a normal landing."

What is the purpose of disconecting the RSL at this point? If you cut away with two out does the RSL effect the reserve when you chop your main??

Please someone explain in english the pro's and con's to this...

Edit to add: SIMS recomend to disco RSL during a downplane as well. I thinking since altitude will be a factor in this situation disco of the RSL doesn't seem to be likley, I think I would be choping...

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[sundevil777 93]

Pro - The purpose of diconnecting is to make it easier for your main to get out of the way. Even a slight hesitation to extract the RSL lanyard out of its channels, possibly unmate velcro, pull on reserve cable, etc. could be bad if the main does a fast spin around your reserve during a slightly delayed main departure.

edit: Also, it takes away a snag point of the lanyard shackle especially, where the thing could grap a line of your reserve after cutting away.

Con - takes some time...another procedure to do for only some emergencies.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[FOF 6]

If you have two canopies out and it is necessary to cut away the main, there are a couple of reasons why it is recommended to release an RSL if time and altitude permit. For one, there is a general concern that any RSL could potentially, possibly, maybe create a greater risk of entanglement if it is connected. There are also differences in the way RSL's are designed and exactly how they operate on different harness and container systems. The RSL's used on certain rigs have a greater potential than others to create an entanglement if the main is cut away with both canopies out.

If you jump with an RSL you might want to talk to a rigger or instructor about dual-deployment situations and how important it is to release the RSL on your particular rig. You might also find information in your harness and container owner's manual. If you feel like you need more information after consulting these sources you could contact the manufacturer of your harness and container system.

[TrickyDicky 0]

You're told to cut away the main with 2 out if they're flying fine?

In the UK its taught that if they're flying fine, just leave them be. Dont give them more chance to entangling by cutting away, unless you're in a downplane.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[phoenixlpr 0]

In other contries too.

[labrys 0]

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You're told to cut away the main with 2 out if they're flying fine?

No, not "told to", it's just presented as an option. The entire recommendation is:

Quote

4. Stable side-by-side (choose one procedure):


Side-by-side procedure 1:

If both canopies are flying without interference or possibility of entanglement and altitude permits:


(1) Disconnect the RSL.

(2) Cut away the main and steer the reserve to a normal landing.

Side-by-side procedure 2:

Land both canopies.


(1) Release the brakes of the dominant canopy (larger and more overhead) and steer gently with the toggles.

(2) Land without flaring and perform a parachute landing fall.

Owned by Remi #?

[jasonRose 0]

Quote

If you jump with an RSL you might want to talk to a rigger or instructor about dual-deployment situations and how important it is to release the RSL on your particular rig. You might also find information in your harness and container owner's manual. If you feel like you need more information after consulting these sources you could contact the manufacturer of your harness and container system.

Good idea!!!Does anyone out there jump a Mirage G4 that knows the answer???

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[riggerrob 558]

The RSL on a Mirage G4 is highly unlikely to entangle with your reserve when you cutaway.

That vague reference in the SIM mainly applies to the cross-connector style RSLs installed in Racers. There is a chance that they will choke off the reserve canopy when you cutaway.
Almost all other manufacturers use single-sided RSLs that are unlikely to interfear with reserves.

[riggerrob 558]

I much prefer side-by-side procedure number 2.
If they are playing well together, the less you mess with them the better.

[jasonRose 0]

Quote

The RSL on a Mirage G4 is highly unlikely to entangle with your reserve when you cutaway.

That vague reference in the SIM mainly applies to the cross-connector style RSLs installed in Racers. There is a chance that they will choke off the reserve canopy when you cutaway.
Almost all other manufacturers use single-sided RSLs that are unlikely to interfear with reserves.

That makes me feel so much better! I thought I was going to re-eval my emegency procedures...

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[Meux 0]

I had a 2 out situation a few weeks ago. My plan was to let them settle out, and go from there. Initially they went side by side, nice and steady. We (me and both my canopies) were headed towards some hangers. I pulled a toggle on the main to steer about 15 degrees to the right. As I did this the main did a diving twist and started to bowtie, I chopped it at that point.

At home I reviewed my SIM and found that I had highlighted the option to land two if they were side by side and playing nicely together.

In the future, I'm chopping almost immediately. I think its important to sort of look at what ya got, but I was surprised at how quickly things went from shitty to horribly shitty.

Cheers,

Mo

[jsaxton 0]

Want to tell us why you had 2 out ?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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In the future, I'm chopping almost immediately. I think its important to sort of look at what ya got, but I was surprised at how quickly things went from shitty to horribly shitty.

No surprise. Have you read that 2-out report? I've read it long ago, I think it was leave breaks set and steer canopeis with rear.

[AFFI 0]

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In the future, I'm chopping almost immediately. I think its important to sort of look at what ya got, but I was surprised at how quickly things went from shitty to horribly shitty.

I have seen two skydivers give immediate responses to a two out with bad results. In a two out situation with some altitude it may be wisest to give the canopies time to do their "dance". Reacting prematurely could be very costly indeed. Alternatively, I have seen a side by side separate justifying a release of the main canopy at less than 100 feet and the jumper was able to clear the main and land safely under the reserve. This taught me that patience with the canopies in such a circumstance might bear better results. I have also seen a jumper with a clearly recognizable downplane ride it in from 4,000 feet, luckily for this skydiver the canopies married into a side by side at around 100 feet and only resulted in a broken back, had the canopies not gone back overhead the result would have likely been much worse. So there is clearly a difference between patience and being frozen with an overabundance of adrenalin, the deer in the headlights syndrome.

It is important to have an understanding of the recommendations for this situation, practice every conceivable scenario having preplanned actions for the varying possibilities. Because I have seen individuals have bad results when taking action too quickly and too late, it would be beneficial to have a calm mind when the excitement becomes great as it will likely do in such a situation.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I had a 2 out situation a few weeks ago. My plan was to let them settle out, and go from there. Initially they went side by side, nice and steady. We (me and both my canopies) were headed towards some hangers. I pulled a toggle on the main to steer about 15 degrees to the right. As I did this the main did a diving twist and started to bowtie, I chopped it at that point.

Were you taught that in a SBS you should always steer the main towards the reserve? Were you doing that, or steering it away? Are your main and reserve similar sizes?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Notice that a toggle input is not a gentle input.

If you release your breaks you main wants to fly faster and you have your reserve in a half breaks as an anchor....

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

In the future, I'm chopping almost immediately. I think its important to sort of look at what ya got, but I was surprised at how quickly things went from shitty to horribly shitty.

No surprise. Have you read that 2-out report? I've read it long ago, I think it was leave breaks set and steer canopeis with rear.

The report actually says:
conclusion: If a side-by-side is present and the jumper has directional control, fly the side-by-side using smooth, gentle toggle input of the larger/dominant canopy.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[phoenixlpr 0]

True. I've read it again.

[Meux 0]

In response to several folks, I got in the situation by screwing up. I had rented gear that I wasn't 100% familiar with, I pulled a little low and sniveled through the AAD activation altitude that was set for a student (no excuse).

I checked the main, it looked good, I released the brakes and at that time the reserve came out, they very quickly settled into a SBS. I estimated my landing spot and realized I needed to change my heading. The main was a 190 and the reserve was a 218 (larger than the main).

I made a very gentle toggle input trying to turn about 15 degrees to a clear area. The main dove and turned opposite to my toggle input and I chopped it.

In hind sight I learned a ton of stuff from that jump.

Most of the lessons are already apparent, stuff like knowing your gear (especially rented stuff), altitude awareness which means breaking out of the formation at the right alititude regardless of what everyone else does. Constant study and review of emergency procedures.

I appreciate all the comments and sharing, it might keep someone else from screwing up and getting hurt.

Cheers,

Mo

[phoenixlpr 0]

See 2 post above.

[Orange1 0]

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See 2 post above.

are you referring to the fact that his reserve was larger than his main...vs the PD recommendation?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[altichick 0]

You don't say what AAD you were using but I thought (with Cypress at least) that the activation altitudes for student and experienced are the same, only the activation speed differs? Too low is too low, regardless of it being student or experienced cypress. Someone feel free to correct me on this if i'm wrong! Glad you were ok

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[Meux 0]

The AAD was an FXC. You're right, too low is too low. I felt that I was slightly lower than my experience or comfort level would dictate.

I stayed in the formation too long (7 way). I should've turned and tracked at the briefed altitude, I didn't, that was my mistake. As I tracked away there was a guy just off to my right and slightly higher than me. I tracked just a little too long getting seperation from that jumper.

It was a great learning experience for me. I'm very happy to have walked away from it. Paying for a reserve repack and other minor costs is way cheaper than other options.

Cheers,

Mo

[brianfry713 0]

Nope, as I understand it, the activation altitude of about 750 feet is the same between Expert and Student Cypres only if you are exceeding 78 mph. If you are going between 29 and 78 mph in a Student Cypres, it will fire around 1000 feet.

[
url]http://www.cypres.cc/Downloads/6_2_Users_Guides/CYPRES_2_users_guide_English_11-2005_b.pdf[/url]

For the student version from the CYPRES 2 manual page 12

It activates the release unit when it detects a rate
of descent higher than 29 mph (13 meters per second).
The activation altitude is split. In the case
of rate of descent being approx. that of free fall,
the opening altitude is at approx. 750 feet (the same
as with Expert CYPRES). However, should the
rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but
still above the limit of 29 mph (e.g. with partially
opened canopy, or after a cutaway), then Student
CYPRES activates the release unit when the
altitude falls below approx. 1000 feet (approx. 300
meters) above ground level. The student will then
have more time to prepare for landing. Like the
Expert CYPRES, the Student CYPRES ceases
operation below approx. 130 feet AGL.

[Meux 0]

The FXC was set to 1500 and functions plus or minus 750. I threw my pilot chute at about 2600 and sniveled down to 2100 or so. When I got full inflation, checked the main, released the brakes, that is when the reserve came out.

When I got on the plane I knew the AAD was set for 1500, I didn't know it was plus or minus 750.

Great comments, lots of lessons learned.

Cheers,

Mo