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randhawa922

AFF FROM HIGH SPEED FIXED WING AIRCRAFT

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4 hours ago, randhawa922 said:

Hellos!!

1. Is AFF from high speed (>250kmph) fixed wing aircraft conducted anywhere in the world ?

What is kmph?  Is that kph or mph or kts (knots?)

If you are talking kps then it's more difficult but it's doable, especially with tailgates.  250kph would be 135kts, which is pretty close to standard exit speed on a C130 (125kts.)

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Personally I prefer doing accompanied freefall jumps from King Air because it flies a bit faster (90 to 100 knots) than the usual single-engined Cessnas (80 ish knots). The slight increase in airspeed during KA exits means that we have full-speed to work with NOW! ... versus waiting 5 seconds before we have useable "firm" air.

If you want to know more about linked exits from C-130 or IL-76, talk to the US Navy SEALS and EOD Techs who were on the Leap Frogs team that dragged 10-ways and bigger off the ramp of a C-130. A couple of them suffered arm injuries.

Overall, it sounds like the Indian Air Force is re-learning a few lessons that you should have learned a few decades ago when IL-76 was first introduced. I remember listening to John Sherman describe some of the test-jumps that his people (Jump Shack or Parachute Labs) did when demonstrating military Racers to the Indian Air Force during the 1980s and 1990s. During that same period, they sold a handful of Racer Tandems to the British SAS who used them during the First Gulf War.

Ah! The joys of an air force that retires old farts before they pass along their knowledge to the young guys!

 

Please note that I am not specifically criticizing the Indian Air Force, because the Canadian Armed Forces suffered similar problems when I served (1974 to 1987) after all of the Korean War veterans had retired and serving sargents were just parroting fears that they half-understood. Every new generation of sargents passed on less than the generation before. 

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12 hours ago, billvon said:

What is kmph?  Is that kph or mph or kts (knots?)

If you are talking kps then it's more difficult but it's doable, especially with tailgates.  250kph would be 135kts, which is pretty close to standard exit speed on a C130 (125kts.)

Kmph-Kilometers per hour, yes, It is 135Kts. Doable, okay. But is it in practice anywhere in the world?

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On 1/9/2023 at 6:30 AM, randhawa922 said:

1. Is AFF from high speed (>250kmph) fixed wing aircraft conducted anywhere in the world ?

2. Is there any limit on speed of the aircraft to conduct AFF course ?

Why even ask the question? Any entity that can afford high speed aircraft can also afford aircraft that can be safely flown at slower speeds. There is simply no need to complicate things.

If you require tailgate birds for tactical military freefall exits, just acquire tailgate aircraft like the Skyvan for initial training. This has been a routine practice for military freefall training for years.

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don't they use c-130s for mff training in the desert?  or do they use civilian aircraft?  i know an instructor who was there several years ago and i thought he mentioned using a c-130 but it's been years since i talked to him.  i know that during airborne ops the c-17 can't slow down enough to let jumpers out unless it has less than half a tank of fuel, and when we jumped it was going at about 170 knts.  that was static line and not mff though. 

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9 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Why even ask the question? Any entity that can afford high speed aircraft can also afford aircraft that can be safely flown at slower speeds. There is simply no need to complicate things.

If you require tailgate birds for tactical military freefall exits, just acquire tailgate aircraft like the Skyvan for initial training. This has been a routine practice for military freefall training for years.

You’re right.

So fast moving aircraft is not used for AFF. Thanks!

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1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

don't they use c-130s for mff training in the desert?  or do they use civilian aircraft?  i know an instructor who was there several years ago and i thought he mentioned using a c-130 but it's been years since i talked to him.  i know that during airborne ops the c-17 can't slow down enough to let jumpers out unless it has less than half a tank of fuel, and when we jumped it was going at about 170 knts.  that was static line and not mff though. 

Haven’t seen AFF from C-130/C-17 in any case.

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On 1/9/2023 at 6:00 PM, randhawa922 said:

Hellos!!

1. Is AFF from high speed (>250kmph) fixed wing aircraft conducted anywhere in the world ?

2. Is there any limit on speed of the aircraft to conduct AFF course ?

3. Please share your knowledge on the subject.

 

TIA, Blue skies!

73364209_10157159682760589_2320291863312990208_o-600x400.jpg

If anyone has any literature/article or documentary information on this, request share.

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4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Former President Bush did a few jumps, some of which were AFF. 

The Army Golden Knights took him. 

From what I can find, they did it out of a Twin Otter.

Retired President George Bush's first jump was from a flaming Grumman TBM Avenger torpedo bomber. It seems that the Japanese did not enjoy him dropping bombs on them.

His second and third jumps were from a Shorts Skyvan operated by Skydive Arizona out of Eloy. I assembled and packed his rig (Telesis) for those jumps.

Eloy routinely hosts military freefall students from a half-dozen countries. They also have a wind-tunnel and barracks for military students. Consistently clear weather makes it cheaper to send military students to Arizona.

The US military freefall school is also in Arizona ... Yuma, Arizona down near the border with Mexico.

He later did a tandem or three from light helicopters.

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What types of aircraft are the Indian Air Force using to train AFF?

Illyushin IL-76, C-130 and C-17 are too fast for graceful AFF. Once students progress beyond the first few harness-hold jumps, these would be fine for later practice jumps especially with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes.

How many Antonov AN-32 are still in Indian Air Force service? How slow can an AN-32 fly jump-run with a light load (say half fuel) and the cargo ramp open?

I have done tandems from Dornier 228, but that side door is a bit low for AFF. The Dornier factory-supplied aluminum, accordian-fold door is a nuisance. You would be better off without or with a modern slide-up door made of clear Lexan (see most North American civilian jump-planes). You would also want to add grab rails both inside and outside the top edge of the door. I have done plenty of harness-hold jumps from Beechcraft King Air, with a similar-sized door, but the medium-sized door is far from ideal. Those medium-sized side doors are silly for jumping with rucksacks.

Mi-8 and Mi-17 helicopters would be perfect. Just tell the pilots to open the cargo ramp and fly jump-run at 80 to 100 knots. Harness-hold jumps are easy at those airspeeds.

HAL Chetak and HAL Dhruv helicopters would be fine for smaller AFF classes, because they only carry 1 or 3 AFF teams at a time, but still tell pilots to fly jump run at 80 to 100 knots. How tall is the tail ramp on Dhruv?

In summary, slow-flying (80 to 100 knots) aircraft with cargo ramps are the first choice for AFF. Slow-flying aircraft with tall side doors (say 1.5 to 2 meters) are second choice, but require more setting-up outside the door before letting go.

Finally even a half hour in a wind tunnel will vastly improve and AFF program. Are there any vertical wind tunnels in India?

As an aside, I have jumped from more than 30 different types of aircraft .. some cramped ... some comfortable ... some easy to exit ... some a struggle to exit ...

Airvan, Breezy, Beechcraft D-18 (3 different-sized doors), Queen Air and King Air, Britten-Norman Islander, Cessna 172, 180, 182, 185, 205, 206P, Soloy Turbine 206U, 207, 208, 210 and a light twin, DC-3 Dakota, deHavilland DHC-4 Cariboo, DHC-5 Buffalo, DHC-6 Twin Otter, Dornier 27 and 228, Ford Tri-Motor, C-130 Hercules, Maule, Pilatus Porter, Piper Cherokee Six, Quest Kodiak, Shorts Skyvan and Skyliner, and Westwind conversion of Beech 18.

Helicopters include: Aerospatiale Alouette II and A-Star, Bell Huey and Jet Ranger finally CH-47 Chinook.

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Last year we did some AFF training L1, L6, L7 from C-27 Spartan but the speed wasn't fast. Around 220kmh/118knts. No problems at all. 

I'm not sure An-32(the same An 26) would be good for AFF according to the low speed limit during opened ramp. As soon as pilots agree to slow down enough comfortable for you, you are good to go. 

At the end - Be safe! 

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On 1/12/2023 at 1:00 AM, riggerrob said:

What types of aircraft are the Indian Air Force using to train AFF?

Illyushin IL-76, C-130 and C-17 are too fast for graceful AFF. Once students progress beyond the first few harness-hold jumps, these would be fine for later practice jumps especially with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes.

How many Antonov AN-32 are still in Indian Air Force service? How slow can an AN-32 fly jump-run with a light load (say half fuel) and the cargo ramp open?

I have done tandems from Dornier 228, but that side door is a bit low for AFF. The Dornier factory-supplied aluminum, accordian-fold door is a nuisance. You would be better off without or with a modern slide-up door made of clear Lexan (see most North American civilian jump-planes). You would also want to add grab rails both inside and outside the top edge of the door. I have done plenty of harness-hold jumps from Beechcraft King Air, with a similar-sized door, but the medium-sized door is far from ideal. Those medium-sized side doors are silly for jumping with rucksacks.

Mi-8 and Mi-17 helicopters would be perfect. Just tell the pilots to open the cargo ramp and fly jump-run at 80 to 100 knots. Harness-hold jumps are easy at those airspeeds.

HAL Chetak and HAL Dhruv helicopters would be fine for smaller AFF classes, because they only carry 1 or 3 AFF teams at a time, but still tell pilots to fly jump run at 80 to 100 knots. How tall is the tail ramp on Dhruv?

In summary, slow-flying (80 to 100 knots) aircraft with cargo ramps are the first choice for AFF. Slow-flying aircraft with tall side doors (say 1.5 to 2 meters) are second choice, but require more setting-up outside the door before letting go.

Finally even a half hour in a wind tunnel will vastly improve and AFF program. Are there any vertical wind tunnels in India?

As an aside, I have jumped from more than 30 different types of aircraft .. some cramped ... some comfortable ... some easy to exit ... some a struggle to exit ...

Airvan, Breezy, Beechcraft D-18 (3 different-sized doors), Queen Air and King Air, Britten-Norman Islander, Cessna 172, 180, 182, 185, 205, 206P, Soloy Turbine 206U, 207, 208, 210 and a light twin, DC-3 Dakota, deHavilland DHC-4 Cariboo, DHC-5 Buffalo, DHC-6 Twin Otter, Dornier 27 and 228, Ford Tri-Motor, C-130 Hercules, Maule, Pilatus Porter, Piper Cherokee Six, Quest Kodiak, Shorts Skyvan and Skyliner, and Westwind conversion of Beech 18.

Helicopters include: Aerospatiale Alouette II and A-Star, Bell Huey and Jet Ranger finally CH-47 Chinook.

Thank you for sharing valuable information !!

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On 1/11/2023 at 5:22 AM, randhawa922 said:

If anyone has any literature/article or documentary information on this, request share.

With respect sir,

You need to hire someone with deep experience and knowledge rather than seeking solutions online. It's not just asking how to make a successful exit with a student at high exit speeds, imagine what might happen if two inexperienced instructors tumble an AFF 1 at 250kph or if the pilot turns on the light at 300 kph. Surely there is someone you can access for knowledge if these jumps are even necessary and unless it's some kind of special forces training I can not imagine why it would be.

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6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

With respect sir,

You need to hire someone with deep experience and knowledge rather than seeking solutions online. It's not just asking how to make a successful exit with a student at high exit speeds, imagine what might happen if two inexperienced instructors tumble an AFF 1 at 250kph or if the pilot turns on the light at 300 kph. Surely there is someone you can access for knowledge if these jumps are even necessary and unless it's some kind of special forces training I can not imagine why it would be.

I understand, I believe your advice. I’m just gathering general information. Regards.

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1 hour ago, randhawa922 said:

I understand, I believe your advice. I’m just gathering general information. Regards.

Yes. And not just for you but for everyone else who believes going to the internet first and talking to experts second is appropriate: stop it. That is not to say that the voracious reading of articles and research online isn't a fantastic way to learn. Just do not expect that opinions from all comers on blogs is a good first start. It is not, in fact it's the worse way to start.

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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Yes. And not just for you but for everyone else who believes going to the internet first and talking to experts second is appropriate: stop it. That is not to say that the voracious reading of articles and research online isn't a fantastic way to learn. Just do not expect that opinions from all comers on blogs is a good first start. It is not, in fact it's the worse way to start.

Thank you for your inputs sir.. appreciated. 

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