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sundevil777

Altimeter rant

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What advantages does a Viso/Ares have over the Neptune/N3/Atlas?  Let's disregard price for now.

Only after 30 years jumping did I consider a digital visual altimeter. A Viso II seemed not so easy to see, but an old Neptune II was much nicer.  I've stuck with them since, and think there are many reasons why the Alti-2 product line is superior to the Ares/Viso.  The L&B audibles are more competitive I think, but not the visual altis.  I'm not just a "fanboy" of Alti-2. I think they could have done much better with their new products.  I am also surprised the only competition to the VOG requires an earbud.  Everyone raves about the VOG when they try it, and I doubt my experience will be different, but how long does it take to get one? 

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You'll have to remember, there's a crippling chip shortage that's still going on since from the pandemic. It affects not just supplies of existing products (see what happened to Dekunu) but also impacts the ability to develop new ones.

I've been trying to find a Raspberry Pi for some personal projects and they're still impossible to find (and no, I will not pay scalpers) - the Raspberry Pi foundation has said that things will only improve in the second half of 2023.

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I have an L&B Altitrack, Ares II and Viso II.  I also have a VOG on order.

Best overall alti is the L&B Altitrack; it does everything and easiest to view.  I’m a proponent of visually seeing needles/bars as opposed to just numbers when you need to know info quickly (skydiving, aircraft, etc).

Should you be determined to go digital format, the Ares II is a big jump better than Viso II (I’ve now given my Viso II to my son).  I wear my L&B Altitrack on every jump and add the Ares II (on riser mount) for wingsuiting.

Regarding VOG, I asked around differing DZs and got 100% positive feedback by anyone who has ever used one; so ordered one in early November.  My order confirmation noted deliver time is presently 12-20 weeks – so will be late Jan at the earliest when I receive mine.

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For me, size is a big factor. I do lots of CRW, and having something on my hand or arm that can easily have a line snagged on it is no good. So my choice for a viso 2 (with elastic wrist-mount that I carry practically near my elbow) is primarily for its very small size.

Maybe the altitude takes a fraction longer to read than an analog dial, I wouldn't know. I've never had issues with it, even on the sporadic freefall jumps that I did.

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7 hours ago, RMK said:

I’m a proponent of visually seeing needles/bars as opposed to just numbers when you need to know info quickly

Many are convinced an analog alti will result in less time wasted staring at it compared to a digital alti. I can understand that it seems logical to make that conclusion. I think it is usually incorrect.

If you're looking at your alti only long enough to realize it is a long way from breakoff time, you should have been able to tell that from the ground. If you're wanting to know if it is 6 or 5k, it takes longer than people usually want to admit to themselves.

I have noticed some videos recently where people spend an awful lot of time staring at their analog alti each time they "glance" at it. Real people in freefall might not match up with what seems intuitive.

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4 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Many are convinced an analog alti will result in less time wasted staring at it compared to a digital alti. I can understand that it seems logical to make that conclusion. I think it is usually incorrect.

Not exactly.

Back in the late 80s, when airplanes went to 'glass cockpits' (CRT displays for the instrument panel), they did a bunch of research on what format the gauges should be.

They found that analog (needle & dial) were read more quickly than digital. 
So they went with those.

More recent studies have shown that it's dependent on what you have used the most (what you 'grew up with'). It's not that the original studies were incorrect, just that the subjects who participated in them were more familiar with the analog and read them faster/better.

Many of the younger crowd grew up on digital displays and read those faster than analog. 

So it all depends on what you have the most experience with.

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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Not exactly.

Back in the late 80s, when airplanes went to 'glass cockpits' (CRT displays for the instrument panel), they did a bunch of research on what format the gauges should be.

They found that analog (needle & dial) were read more quickly than digital. 
So they went with those.

More recent studies have shown that it's dependent on what you have used the most (what you 'grew up with'). It's not that the original studies were incorrect, just that the subjects who participated in them were more familiar with the analog and read them faster/better.

Many of the younger crowd grew up on digital displays and read those faster than analog. 

So it all depends on what you have the most experience with.

I've heard the "needle on the dial" argument for as long as there have been digital altimeters and it may be true with pilots for whatever reason.

When I ran a DZ in the late 90's I put my AFF students on digitals (the "digitude"  - the first and at the time only digital on the market) using the logic that the display read the same way we taught students to think - in 2 digits. 10.5 - 9.0 - 5.5 etc.

I'm sure there are opinions in both directions, but we found that our students liked the simplicity of a 2-digit, numeric display.

It also completely eliminated the "I couldn't read my altimeter" issue students sometimes had with analogs.

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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

More recent studies have shown that it's dependent on what you have used the most (what you 'grew up with').

I think jumpers tend not to "glance" at their analog altimeters, they stare at them for a long time.  I think their brain uses that time to process the image into a number before looking away.  Just a theory of mine. 

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(edited)

I’m also old and started when there were no digital options. Much prefer digital now and I believe they are a mandatory tool if you want to learn to swoop down the track with any level of safety (a relative term in swooping). You’re 30 years in so I’m not teaching you to suck eggs, more a reference for newbie jumpers looking to make this decision.

I go swimming a fair bit and have destroyed a few L&B products that way. I switched to 3 x Atlas (1 on wrist and 2 audibles) and have had no such issues since. I’ve come to really appreciate the USB charging and the guide tones on every canopy alarm on the Atlas rather than just on the last alarm as it was on my old Optimas. If you go nowhere near a swoop pond then they’re all good products so pick your favourite but here is what I think personally and whyI recommend the Alti-2 route.

Possible advantages of the Optima over Atlas for audible use with my rebuttals:

  • Smaller size. Some helmet pockets may not accommodate an Atlas as easily. For example, I use a Cookie fuel and the Atlas broke the supplied rubber retainers which I think are shit anyway. I replaced with a bungee which I now prefer.
  • Tonfly helmets only have adapters for L&B to be visible/adjustable without removing from the helmet. Most people seem to use full face helmets that don’t have this ability anyway.
  • Some people who are less organised than me may prefer to be able to swap batteries if they get to the DZ and forgot to recharge. Only takes a short while to get enough juice into the Atlas though and you still have to remember Optima batteries, which aren’t easily available here, so I think this advantage is tenuous at best.
  • Atlas has a 1000ft climb to altitude alarm but Optima is adjustable. We take seatbelts off at 2k which is where I set my Optima alarm and I forgot to take my seatbelt off when I first got the Atlas resulting in a beer fine. You soon get used to not having a 2k alarm so no biggie.
  • More people know how to use them, also lots of the cool people are sponsored by them so you can look cool too :)
  • Haven’t checked but I believe they are cheaper(?) Not so cheap when you destroy the, in the swoop pond though, believe me.

Real advantages of the Optima over Atlas for audible use (IMO):

  • Smaller size. Some helmet pockets may not accommodate an Atlas as easily.
  • Tonfly helmets only have adapters for L&B to be visible/adjustable without removing from the helmet.
  • More people know how to use them.
  • Price if not taking them near the water.

Advantages of Atlas over Optima:

  • Water resistance 
  • Guide tones on every canopy alarm
  • Easier to configure (in my opinion but YMMV)
  • USB charging - easier, cheaper and better for the environment 

Advantages of Viso / Ares for wrist over Atlas:

  • None IMO 

Advantages of Atlas for wrist over Viso:

  • Improved water resistance
  • USB charging - easier, cheaper and better for the environment 

Advantages of Atlas for wrist over Ares:

  • USB charging - easier, cheaper and better for the environment 

 

TLDR: Just get an Atlas (or a few like me)

 

 

Edited by base615
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On 1/2/2023 at 9:33 PM, chuckakers said:

I've heard the "needle on the dial" argument for as long as there have been digital altimeters and it may be true with pilots for whatever reason.

I agree, I'm also a little skeptical of that being a universal truth.

"Analog is better" may only be for a certain circumstance: E.g., looking down a couple rows of gauges of engine instruments to get a rough idea if all numbers are reasonable and "in the green" rather than being out of a certain range.  Much easier to see that "all gauges are pointing to the upper left" than see a list of numbers and have to interpret what each value means, when 'good' numbers could be 2450, 90, 28.5, 375, 1550 etc. depending on the gauge.

And were the digital numbers of those comparison studies recent enough to have colour displays that could show whether a digital readout was in the green, yellow, or red, to make the comparison more meaningful?  Indeed I think many LCD etc screen displays on airliners now show both the actual value, and a circular sweep gauge -- both kinds of readouts are useful for different reasons.

But if you want a single value, then it can be easier to look at a digital number.

(And I'm saying this stuff that is pro-digital, as someone who still uses their big old Alti II mechanical gauge alti and is fine with that.)

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(edited)

Alti-2 shouldn't be telling us/implying in their ads their batteries will last 10 years.  They use this number in their marketing about how you'll be enviro friendly and save a certain amount of money, and that all consumer type lithium batteries are good for 10 years as long as you don't recharge them so dang much...Very flawed marketing in my opinion. 

Don't tell people you're doing the environment a favor and then predict the disposal of the whole darn thing after 10 years, that's not consistent.  The battery for the Neptune 2 is $4 and available everywhere (opposite of the L&B batteries).  Disposable batteries can be considered an advantage if the batteries are cheap and available.  If you could get months of use from a $20 or whatever cost battery for your gopro, but you couldn't recharge it, I think many would consider that at some cost/time combination, a disposable battery is a plus.  

Perhaps Alti-2 is admitting the truth about batteries losing capacity over their lifetime, and the 10 year figure is where some certain % remains.  It might mean the battery indicator gets low after half the time or number of jumps, whatever, it is still likely going to be quite usable for many years, and is dependent on overall charging habits. They shouldn't be implying a 10 year lifetime.

Edited by sundevil777

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On 1/4/2023 at 4:59 PM, base615 said:

Advantages of Atlas for wrist over Viso:

  • Improved water resistance
  • USB charging - easier, cheaper and better for the environment 

Advantages of Atlas for wrist over Ares:

  • USB charging - easier, cheaper and better for the environment 

 

 

 

I prefer the display on the Atlas which changes automatically from aircraft mode (lots of detail) to freefall mode (thousands and hundreds of feet only - super simple and clear) and then to canopy mode (adds tens of feet) providing an appropriate level of detail for each phase of the jump.

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(edited)
14 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

I prefer the display on the Atlas which changes automatically from aircraft mode (lots of detail) to freefall mode (thousands and hundreds of feet only - super simple and clear) and then to canopy mode (adds tens of feet) providing an appropriate level of detail for each phase of the jump.

Quite right! Even the earliest Neptune behaves that way.  How could L&B invest money into a new and more expensive model without getting rid of the useless blur of a tens digit in freefall?  As you mention, even the earliest Neptune could show extra details such as climb rate, and the user interface is great compared to L&B products.

Edited by sundevil777

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(edited)
On 1/1/2023 at 5:40 AM, olofscience said:

You'll have to remember, there's a crippling chip shortage that's still going on since from the pandemic. It affects not just supplies of existing products (see what happened to Dekunu) but also impacts the ability to develop new ones.

I've been trying to find a Raspberry Pi for some personal projects and they're still impossible to find (and no, I will not pay scalpers) - the Raspberry Pi foundation has said that things will only improve in the second half of 2023.

Most of the VOG website seems to be working, but not if you try to buy it. One wonders if the company is in trouble when you can't buy something. 

The extra features of the premium version are of very little value to me.  Is it a teaser? If a person orders a basic version, does it get delayed until you upgrade to the more expensive version they want you to buy?  Never have I spotted a basic version in the wild, and wondering if they exist.  Maybe it takes twice as long to get one, and I don't expect the manufacturer to admit it if true.  

Wishing for more competition in the talking altimeter market.  There is the SonoAlti (and old N3A), but it requires earbuds.  The VOG is the only new alti on the market worth buying new in my opinion.  They don't show up available used, likely because of their popularity.  The large number of Altitracks on the used market indicates the opposite.  IMO none of the new visual/digital altis offer substantial advantages over getting a used N3, or even N2.

Edited by sundevil777

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16 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Wishing for more competition in the talking altimeter market.

In the talking altimeter market yes there's not much competition. I'm sure more will appear eventually. But for altimeters in general, competition has improved a lot compared to, say, 2014 when it was practically just 2 companies.

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I jump at a DZ that has a ~130ft offset from take off to landing. My Atlas has a very simple offset function that displays the number of feet offset and direction while it's in ground mode. I'd like for it to do it while we're in the climb, but that data is replaced by the climb rate which I also like so it's not the end of the world. I also really like the convenience of the logbook on the Atlas. It's nice to double check how many jumps I've done in the day at a glance on the plane, or in completing some logging at the end of the day. 

 

My L&B works great if I'm at a different DZ with no offset or intention of logging or referring to that jump after the fact. The series of convoluted button pushes required to get to the different functions on L&B products is baffling, and doesn't align with any other modern consumer UI. I treat it effectively as an analog altimeter than shows numbers differently. I prefer my mudflap to be an analog, but I think that might be the best application for L&B products in my specific case. 

I hated using the Ares so much I gave it away for 5 packjobs and will replace my Atlas when it breaks (again) with another because it's got everything I like. 

Tl:Dr Atlas>Ares

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I’ve owned a viso2, optima2, N2, currently have an N3 and aon pebble and Aon X2 and Galaxy for good measure.

They were all fine. Here are my notes.

There is barely any difference between Neptune series and Viso series. You are fooling yourself if you think there is. Neptune has a slightly bigger screen which didn’t make a difference. Viso has a jump replay mode that I used once to debrief a cutaway. If you are choosing between those two pick the one that is cheaper or that you can find used.

X2 I’m a big fan of. It’s the first altimeter in a while that adds value with GPS and distance/direction to DZ (super useful on moving jumps, especially if you go on your back or into a cloud or 5000 feet of cloud). But it costs more and it’s harder to get one.

For audible I use a pebble after my optima died. Again - for most people whatever is cheapest will be best. I had the pebble laying around and it’s been great. Optima was great too. Just cost 3x as much.

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On 1/18/2023 at 1:54 PM, lyosha said:

There is barely any difference between Neptune series and Viso series. You are fooling yourself if you think there is.

My experience of swimming in the pond with a Viso and my Alti-2 equivalents beg to differ. My L&B altimeters (Viso and Optima) both went FUBAR and needed to be replaced. My Atlas's have been underwater repeatedly with zero issues. If you aren't a swooper then choose either but, if you are a swooper and like your altimeters to be disposable, then go L&B by all means. If, like me, you hate spending hundreds of dollars on gear you have to throw away and replace with another one after a few jumps then go Alti-2.

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On 1/18/2023 at 10:44 PM, base615 said:

My experience of swimming in the pond with a Viso and my Alti-2 equivalents beg to differ. My L&B altimeters (Viso and Optima) both went FUBAR and needed to be replaced. My Atlas's have been underwater repeatedly with zero issues. If you aren't a swooper then choose either but, if you are a swooper and like your altimeters to be disposable, then go L&B by all means. If, like me, you hate spending hundreds of dollars on gear you have to throw away and replace with another one after a few jumps then go Alti-2.

How many people go swimming in their skydiving gear? You might be one of the exceptions. I sure hope an AFF student isn’t thinking about how waterproof their first gear is…

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2 hours ago, lyosha said:

How many people go swimming in their skydiving gear? You might be one of the exceptions. I sure hope an AFF student isn’t thinking about how waterproof their first gear is…

At our DZ, a lot. Any DZ with a swoop pond which are more and more common would have a lot too. Anyone who wants to go down that path in the future would do well to consider it, particularly since the cost of both are comparable.

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12 hours ago, base615 said:

At our DZ, a lot. Any DZ with a swoop pond which are more and more common would have a lot too. Anyone who wants to go down that path in the future would do well to consider it, particularly since the cost of both are comparable.

I would hope by the time people are trying to swoop ponds they are not seeking altimeter advice from an Internet forum :rofl:

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4 minutes ago, lyosha said:

I would hope by the time people are trying to swoop ponds they are not seeking altimeter advice from an Internet forum :rofl:

Hey, not everyone swooping a pond is a professional. (Pond availability varies a lot. Can be quite rare, but not always just at the 'super big DZ's full of pro swoopers'). Always good to know what the latest tech is and that includes waterproof status.

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On 1/23/2023 at 2:13 AM, lyosha said:

I would hope by the time people are trying to swoop ponds they are not seeking altimeter advice from an Internet forum :rofl:

An altimeter can last a decade or more. If you would like to swoop in the future then it is prudent to buy one early in your career that is suitable for the future.

We have people with a little over 200 jumps on a Flight-1 course learning straight-in double front approaches over our pond, so it’s not like it’s years down the track for some people.

It could feasibly be only a year after buying your alti and you’re now stuck having to shell out hundreds of dollars for a new one because you landed in the pond and destroyed your Viso / Optima.

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