skydived19006 4 #1 June 30, 2014 Ok, so this is a bit of a rant. The SIM and possibly the IRM piss me off at times! A skydiver asked me if he could tag along on a tandem this coming weekend. I thought that I'd simply cut and paste the suggested jump requirements for that from the SIM/IRM, but God danm if I can't f'ing find it! It could be a bit more user friendly!Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #2 July 1, 2014 I wonder if the reason that you cannot find it is because it isn't there. I cannot help but wonder if that info is in the manufacturer's documents.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #3 July 1, 2014 I think just saying "No" would be easier.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuai43 7 #4 July 1, 2014 skydived19006 Ok, so this is a bit of a rant. The SIM and possibly the IRM piss me off at times! A skydiver asked me if he could tag along on a tandem this coming weekend. I thought that I'd simply cut and paste the suggested jump requirements for that from the SIM/IRM, but God danm if I can't f'ing find it! It could be a bit more user friendly! From the SIM: Chapter 13, Section 2.1 Skydivers participating in a freefall group skydive consisting of a tandem instructor in a single harness with a student, along with one or more separate jumpers, either with or without camera equipment, should adhere to the following guidelines: a) All jumpers should have a minimum of 500 group freefall skydives, 100 of which should be naked jumps. b) A certified Skygod (c) tattoo should be prominently displayed on their asscheek. c) A minimum of 5 oz. of titanium should be internally installed on each jumper accompanying the tandem pair. This should winnow out your suitable candidates just a bit. Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #5 July 1, 2014 skydived19006Ok, so this is a bit of a rant. The SIM and possibly the IRM piss me off at times! A skydiver asked me if he could tag along on a tandem this coming weekend. I thought that I'd simply cut and paste the suggested jump requirements for that from the SIM/IRM, but God danm if I can't f'ing find it! It could be a bit more user friendly! The PDF version is easy to search....more or less.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #6 July 1, 2014 actually to be accurate, it is technically 100 naked jumps within the last 12 months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug_Davis 0 #7 July 1, 2014 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4615256#4615256 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #8 July 1, 2014 I just tell them roughly what the manufacturers require: 500+ jumps Good RW Skill and Currency Instructors rating, of TI or AFF Then I tell them the about the fatality of the guy that collided with his mother and the tandem instructor on opening. They usually take it pretty well when they realize they could kill me & their friend that they want to jump with or themselves if things don't go to plan."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug_Davis 0 #9 July 1, 2014 DougHI just tell them roughly what the manufacturers require: 500+ jumps Good RW Skill and Currency Instructors rating, of TI or AFF Then I tell them the about the fatality of the guy that collided with his mother and the tandem instructor on opening. They usually take it pretty well when they realize they could kill me & their friend that they want to jump with or themselves if things don't go to plan. In all seriousness though arent these rules mainly to protect the manufacturers from yet another lawsuit? Because accidents caused by newbies who cant fly, can happen at anytime when jumpers are within close proximity. I mean look at what happened to Cliff Schmucker last year. As a non-TI, I guess the only advantage being a solo flier gives you is that it would be easier to get out of someone's way prior to impact, than it would be for a TI with a student strapped to them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #10 July 1, 2014 Doug_Davis As a non-TI, I guess the only advantage being a solo flier gives you is that it would be easier to get out of someone's way prior to impact, than it would be for a TI with a student strapped to them? Yes, with that person on the front and that big drogue trailing out the back, it's really hard to duck and dodge and get out of the way of an inbound meat missle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #11 July 1, 2014 Doug_Davis***I just tell them roughly what the manufacturers require: 500+ jumps Good RW Skill and Currency Instructors rating, of TI or AFF Then I tell them the about the fatality of the guy that collided with his mother and the tandem instructor on opening. They usually take it pretty well when they realize they could kill me & their friend that they want to jump with or themselves if things don't go to plan. In all seriousness though arent these rules mainly to protect the manufacturers from yet another lawsuit? Because accidents caused by newbies who cant fly, can happen at anytime when jumpers are within close proximity. I mean look at what happened to Cliff Schmucker last year. As a non-TI, I guess the only advantage being a solo flier gives you is that it would be easier to get out of someone's way prior to impact, than it would be for a TI with a student strapped to them? Sure, it obviously is to cover the mfgrs' asses, but that doesn't mean that safety considerations don't co-exist with that agenda. For one, is the fact that almost all tandem passengers are students with little or no skydiving experience; and arguably the highest standard of care must be shown toward students who don't have the capacity to make an informed judgment for themselves. (That being said, it would be reasonable to apply the same standard to lurking an AFF jump, for example.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #12 July 1, 2014 Quote That being said, it would be reasonable to apply the same standard to lurking an AFF jump, for example. Negative! FIFY - Absolutely no one who does not themselves have an active, current AFF rating, and known capabilities as such to me personally, is lurking any AFF dive that I'm involved with. Regardless of their other cumulative jump #'s / supposed experience.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamUK 3 #13 July 1, 2014 Scrumpot Absolutely no one who does not themselves have an active, current AFF rating, and known capabilities as such to me personally, is lurking any AFF dive that I'm involved with. Regardless of their other cumulative jump #'s / supposed experience. I think it would be unfair for the AFF student who's spent big bucks on ground school and the jump itself to have either him or both AFFI's potentially distracted by someone else on the jump notwithstanding the safety aspects too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #14 July 1, 2014 Scrumpot Quote That being said, it would be reasonable to apply the same standard to lurking an AFF jump, for example. Negative! FIFY - Absolutely no one who does not themselves have an active, current AFF rating, and known capabilities as such to me personally, is lurking any AFF dive that I'm involved with. Regardless of their other cumulative jump #'s / supposed experience. I've allowed a non-AFF-I rated videographer to film an AFF (the student insisted on video) once or twice. We usually gave them the briefing that they cannot be anywhere above, below or within 15' of any of us. Usually they'd fly in and get a face shot or two, but spend the rest of the time out of sight of the student and where one of the AFF-I's could see them. I can see the desire to only have AFF rated instructors in the air, but sometimes you're given the cards you're dealt. At least we were able to make sure the videographer was capable in our eyes of staying out of our way."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #15 July 1, 2014 Doug_Davis In all seriousness though aren't these rules mainly to protect the manufacturers from yet another lawsuit? Because accidents caused by newbies who cant fly, can happen at anytime when jumpers are within close proximity. What are you getting at? Are you implying that the rules set by the manufacturer are primarily motivated for legal reasons? That is asinine! The rules are mainly for the safety of the tandem instructor and passenger/student who doesn't fully understand the increased risks of including other jumpers on their skydive. If you don't cripple or injure the tandem pair you greatly reduce the risk of lawsuits. An uninjured healthy student doesn't normally have grounds to sue your skydiving equipment company. Bonus! There are plenty of jumpers who have the free fall skills, situational awareness, and intelligence to safely interact with a tandem at jump numbers well bellow the manufacturers recommendations. There are also plenty of jumpers that couldn't handle it at well past 500 jumps, hence the rating requirement. The rules try to set a bar for safety that limits the lower common denominator jumper. I don't directly give flying fuck about the manufacture getting sued, I care about keeping my tandem students safe, and I try to conduct my jumps in the safest way possible. It just so happens that keeping my students safe reduces lawsuits for me and them. Go figure. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #16 July 1, 2014 Couldn't agree more. I'm out there doing best for me and my student. A novice jumper wanting to geek my student adds an increased risk for me. Risks I don't want to take and open myself up to legal implications if anything happens. I have no problems when someone asks - telling them no !!!. If you meet the requirements then I'll consider your request. 500 jumps is really not that much. Nobody thinks that they will fuck up - I guess the guy that killed his mother thought that as did that tandem instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #17 July 1, 2014 DougH *** In all seriousness though aren't these rules mainly to protect the manufacturers from yet another lawsuit? Because accidents caused by newbies who cant fly, can happen at anytime when jumpers are within close proximity. What are you getting at? Are you implying that the rules set by the manufacturer are primarily motivated for legal reasons? That is asinine! I won't imply that, I will state that: the rules set by the tandem manufacturers are primarily there to stave of the possibility of lawsuits. Since they really can't enforce those rules, they lobby USPA to do it for them. Think about it: the manufacturers make rules that they don't even have to enforce, they just call up someone at HQ and it gets done. No matter how onerous the rule might be, no matter how silly, it just doesn't matter, the membership gets to fund the enforcement. Think about that next time you are paying your membership renewal. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #18 July 1, 2014 >What are you getting at? Crazy Are you implying that the rules set by the >manufacturer are primarily motivated for legal reasons? That is asinine! No it's not; you explain why in the next paragraph: >The rules are mainly for the safety of the tandem instructor and >passenger/student who doesn't fully understand the increased risks of including >other jumpers on their skydive. If you don't cripple or injure the tandem pair you >greatly reduce the risk of lawsuits. An uninjured healthy student doesn't normally >have grounds to sue your skydiving equipment company. Bonus! The very best way to avoid a lawsuit is to not have injuries and fatalities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #19 July 1, 2014 topdocker I won't imply that, I will state that: the rules set by the tandem manufacturers are primarily there to stave of the possibility of lawsuits. Since they really can't enforce those rules, they lobby USPA to do it for them. They can revoke your manf. rating, I would say that is a pretty strong enforcement ability. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug_Davis 0 #20 July 1, 2014 DougHStuff Chill dude. I was asking. I am learning. Im absorbing knowledge. I wasnt trying to be a pontificating newbie. But BillVon's response captured what I meant. Although I did notice that the USPA recommendations for flying camera for a tandem jump are lower then what some manufacturers recommend for someone lurking a tandem jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #21 July 2, 2014 DougHThey can revoke your manf. rating, I would say that is a pretty strong enforcement ability. The FARs mention only the manufacturer's training to get the rating initially. Once trained, a person cannot be "untrained". I have heard of a manufacturer writing an FAA FSDO to tell them that they no longer endorse (or something of that nature) a particular tandem instructor, but I don't know if that means much. The manufacturers have significant control over their examiners however. The thread "class III medical question in relation to DUI" in the Tandem forum has some good explanations about this by "stratostar" starting about halfway down the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #22 July 2, 2014 chemistactually to be accurate, it is technically 100 naked jumps within the last 12 months. Damn. I'm sooooo close.Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
