Sexual orientation being "shoved down our throats"

[gowlerk 1,904]

5 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Okay, I looked into it. No surprise, there aren't a lot of places who'll consider it but it's not impossible if you're willing to travel and I'm guessing that won't be an issue. Basically, and I wont bore you with the preparation details, you'll be dipped. It's after that when the protective coating is applied after which is when the breading can happen. Again, the choices are limited to crumbled Borsak unless there are local artisan bakers. I'm hoping you'll be flexible when you're in what will be an inflexible time for you.

I would think his body should be scanned and a file made so that carcass copies could be 3d printed. In the olden days it would be plaster cast and just a death mask. But we can do better. I can envision billvon bobbleheads as well.

Edited December 17, 2022 by gowlerk

[mistercwood 287]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

I realize they need help but physically changing their gender should wait.

Just for clarity, is it mastectomies that you're concerned about (basically the only surgery ever done to minors other than the scenarios Bill mentioned), or hormone treatment overall?

If the former, these are actually far more rare than certain media wants to make out.... last figures I saw had it in the region of a little less than 300 cases annually in the US, so a bit less than one a day nationally, in a population of over a 1/3 of a billion people.

Cosmetically at least, these are also reversable - the one permanent change is that the patient would not be able to breast feed later in life if they were to detransition. I will point out though that detransitioning figures are also much, much lower than certain media wants to make out. The most recent studies on the matter found a rate of 1-2% across all youths in the study (including all transitioning, social or physical), and most of those were due to family pressure, not a feeling of having made the wrong decision. For comparison, the regret rate for all kinds of elective surgeries overall is in the region of 7%.

Lastly, I do want to point out that getting kids into ballet or gymnastics happens at young ages all over the world, for orders of magnitude more children, and also makes permanent, irreversible changes to those kids bodies. We do not hear the same uproar about these changes, which are ostensibly made for the purposes of a hobby, not someone's being.

I get your concerns about potential misdiagnosis, and agree these kids should be getting the best care and the right outcomes. It's just that of the groups shouting the loudest about caring for the kids, some do mean it, but a whole lot really just don't want trans people to exist and see this as the easiest way to "nip things in the bud".

[JoeWeber 2,297]

10 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

Just for clarity, is it mastectomies that you're concerned about (basically the only surgery ever done to minors other than the scenarios Bill mentioned), or hormone treatment overall?

If the former, these are actually far more rare than certain media wants to make out.... last figures I saw had it in the region of a little less than 300 cases annually in the US, so a bit less than one a day nationally, in a population of over a 1/3 of a billion people.

Cosmetically at least, these are also reversable - the one permanent change is that the patient would not be able to breast feed later in life if they were to detransition. I will point out though that detransitioning figures are also much, much lower than certain media wants to make out. The most recent studies on the matter found a rate of 1-2% across all youths in the study (including all transitioning, social or physical), and most of those were due to family pressure, not a feeling of having made the wrong decision. For comparison, the regret rate for all kinds of elective surgeries overall is in the region of 7%.

Lastly, I do want to point out that getting kids into ballet or gymnastics happens at young ages all over the world, for orders of magnitude more children, and also makes permanent, irreversible changes to those kids bodies. We do not hear the same uproar about these changes, which are ostensibly made for the purposes of a hobby, not someone's being.

I get your concerns about potential misdiagnosis, and agree these kids should be getting the best care and the right outcomes. It's just that of the groups shouting the loudest about caring for the kids, some do mean it, but a whole lot really just don't want trans people to exist and see this as the easiest way to "nip things in the bud".

Alright, you are right, BillVon is right and, like it needs to be said, airdvr is very right. But until the non-flaky teenager is 3D printed, and until kids are well known not to be reactionaries always adverse to applied labels I'll remain in the camp of saying no surgical changes until the person is of the age of majority.

[billvon 2,394]

48 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

 . .  . but a whole lot really just don't want trans people to exist and see this as the easiest way to "nip things in the bud".

I think that makes up much of the overall motivation.  The coatings of "but the poor kids" "shoving it down our throats" etc are just vehicles to support that motivation.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

I think that makes up much of the overall motivation.  The coatings of "but the poor kids" "shoving it down our throats" etc are just vehicles to support that motivation.

To be absolutely clear, I believe that we should be providing accepting, serious, and genuinely understanding support to these kids as they navigate their nascent understandings of who they are and how they will integrate and be a part of their world as they grow older. I simply stop at the knife until they are of the age of majority when it is on them for deciding on elective gender changing surgery.

[billvon 2,394]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

I simply stop at the knife until they are of the age of majority when it is on them for deciding on elective gender changing surgery.

99% of the time I agree with you.  However, there will be exceptions, as I mentioned above.

[Coreece 190]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:02 PM, billvon said:

On 12/15/2022 at 8:08 PM, JoeWeber said:

When you go I'm going to have you bronzed. 

That sounds less than fun.  Maybe I could be breaded.

Tarred and feathered like a duck. . .

[Coreece 190]

On 12/14/2022 at 2:53 PM, billvon said:

I don't think the percentage of LGBT people in society changes much over time.

When reading your post, I was wondering how many bi-sexuals in those surveys from the past would just choose the side they were more comfortable with disclosing, for whatever reason.  Maybe some didn't even realize they were bi-sexual.

Anyway, it seems that nowadays we might have more accurate surveys, so it will be interesting to see if those percentages change moving forward.  It would tell us a lot.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Coreece

[billvon 2,394]

18 hours ago, Coreece said:

When reading your post, I was wondering how many bi-sexuals in those surveys from the past would just choose the side they were more comfortable with disclosing, for whatever reason.  Maybe some didn't even realize they were bi-sexual.

Absolutely.  And as society becomes more tolerant of LGBT, those people will be more willing to answer such things accurately.  

While Kinsey and company got a lot wrong, one thing they got right is that it's a spectrum.  There's the bisexual woman who had sex with a woman once in college, and there's the bisexual woman who has years-long relationships with other women throughout her life.  The former might say she's straight both because she feels that way now - and because it's a safer answer on a poll she doesn't trust 100%.

Quote

Anyway, it seems that nowadays we might have more accurate surveys, so it will be interesting to see if those percentages change moving forward.  It would tell us a lot.

Yep.  And as I mentioned, the percentage of LGBT people in polls is highest in the youngest (18-25) demographic.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

30 minutes ago, billvon said:

Absolutely.  And as society becomes more tolerant of LGBT, those people will be more willing to answer such things accurately.  

While Kinsey and company got a lot wrong, one thing they got right is that it's a spectrum.  There's the bisexual woman who had sex with a woman once in college, and there's the bisexual woman who has years-long relationships with other women throughout her life.  The former might say she's straight both because she feels that way now - and because it's a safer answer on a poll she doesn't trust 100%.

Yep.  And as I mentioned, the percentage of LGBT people in polls is highest in the youngest (18-25) demographic.

Not to be a pill but was it really necessary to your posit, granting that your ostensible desire was to be on point when discussing sexual orientation issues, to use the phrase "shoved down our throats"? 

[billvon 2,394]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Not to be a pill but was it really necessary to your posit, granting that your ostensible desire was to be on point when discussing sexual orientation issues, to use the phrase "shoved down our throats"? 

I was discussing a Facebook post that started off with this:

[mistercwood 287]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

I was discussing a Facebook post that started off with this:

Same energy:

[riggerrob 558]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:54 PM, airdvr said:

I realize they need help but physically changing their gender should wait.

Wow! Must have struck a nerve.

Agreed.

One of the problems with puberty-blocking hormones is that they prevent puberty, but also "sterilize" preventing patients from ever bearing children.

[mistercwood 287]

5 hours ago, riggerrob said:

One of the problems with puberty-blocking hormones is that they prevent puberty, but also "sterilize" preventing patients from ever bearing children.

This is not accurate, puberty-blockers alone have no effect on fertility. Only if you continue on to HRT with testosterone or oestrogen would you face the risk of impacting egg or sperm production, respectively.

It may seem like a semantic distinction, but the blockers and the later hormone treatments are two very different things, with different impacts. That said, yes the fertility concerns around transitioning are valid and clearly laid out for those who go through this process.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

21 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

This is not accurate, puberty-blockers alone have no effect on fertility. Only if you continue on to HRT with testosterone or oestrogen would you face the risk of impacting egg or sperm production, respectively.

It may seem like a semantic distinction, but the blockers and the later hormone treatments are two very different things, with different impacts. That said, yes the fertility concerns around transitioning are valid and clearly laid out for those who go through this process.

Yep. But the problem isn't the science. The problem is who makes the decision.

[lippy 771]

A good friend of mine has a son who was born his daughter.  I first met the kid when he was 11.  He was the obviously-bright kind of kid you'd expect from two brilliant engineer parents who strike me as having the perfect balance of caring for their kids but not being all up in their shit.  

When she hit puberty, she had a rough few years before deciding to come out as a man.  I can't imagine the guts it took to do that in a rural TX town, but he eventually transitioned and is just wrapping up undergrad in an advanced field with several institutions actively pursuing him for post-grad.  He's just a really kind, well-adjusted, extremely ambitious, super-smart 22 year old who's going to make some big waves in a really positive way.  

I'd hate to think what would have been missed if he'd not been allowed, or not had the guts to make the call to live life as his true self.  No doubt there's been countless unnecessary loss and suffering over the years from people not feeling like they had the option to transition, or not being accepted after they did.

That said, as with most people on here I think any irreversible changes on minors are generally a bad idea.  There are going to be exceptions, but they should be rare.  For every example of somebody who really needed to transition (and I really don't want to under-count that group!), how many kids are there who are struggling to find their identity and might be willing to dive into something just to set themselves apart? 

As a horrendously imperfect comparison, you don't see many 40 year old goths and on that note, teenagers sometimes fuck up when trying to figure out their identity.

[wmw999 2,120]

As someone with a transgender nibling, I completely approve the above message. Even with very supportive family and community, it's a very tough row to hoe.

Wendy P.

[Phil1111 910]

11 hours ago, lippy said:

A good friend of mine has a son who was born his daughter....

As a horrendously imperfect comparison, you don't see many 40 year old goths and on that note, teenagers sometimes fuck up when trying to figure out their identity.

 

9 hours ago, wmw999 said:

As someone with a transgender nibling, I completely approve the above message. Even with very supportive family and community, it's a very tough row to hoe.

Wendy P.

Solid reasoning why politics and religion needs to be kept out of the equation.

[BIGUN 1,051]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:20 PM, billvon said:

Facebook post

Therein lies the problem. Walk away. Keep your eyes on me and don't look back.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:02 PM, Coreece said:

Anyway, it seems that nowadays we might have more accurate surveys, so it will be interesting to see if those percentages change moving forward.  It would tell us a lot.

Depends on what the poll discloses. You might see the percentage of gay people decrease, because there are now other "options" to chose from in a poll. it is then easy to start claiming the percentage of gay people is decreasing and therefor society rally doesn't have to do much for them anymore.

[airdvr 197]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:12 PM, lippy said:

A good friend of mine has a son who was born his daughter.  I first met the kid when he was 11.  He was the obviously-bright kind of kid you'd expect from two brilliant engineer parents who strike me as having the perfect balance of caring for their kids but not being all up in their shit.  

When she hit puberty, she had a rough few years before deciding to come out as a man.  I can't imagine the guts it took to do that in a rural TX town, but he eventually transitioned and is just wrapping up undergrad in an advanced field with several institutions actively pursuing him for post-grad.  He's just a really kind, well-adjusted, extremely ambitious, super-smart 22 year old who's going to make some big waves in a really positive way.  

I'd hate to think what would have been missed if he'd not been allowed, or not had the guts to make the call to live life as his true self.  No doubt there's been countless unnecessary loss and suffering over the years from people not feeling like they had the option to transition, or not being accepted after they did.

That said, as with most people on here I think any irreversible changes on minors are generally a bad idea.  There are going to be exceptions, but they should be rare.  For every example of somebody who really needed to transition (and I really don't want to under-count that group!), how many kids are there who are struggling to find their identity and might be willing to dive into something just to set themselves apart? 

As a horrendously imperfect comparison, you don't see many 40 year old goths and on that note, teenagers sometimes fuck up when trying to figure out their identity.

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't be allowed to live as he wants.  I'm saying he should hold off on making physical changes until 18 or older.

Along the lines of your 40 year old goths...they are either a biological male or female. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

10 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't be allowed to live as he wants.  I'm saying he should hold off on making physical changes until 18 or older.

Along the lines of your 40 year old goths...they are either a biological male or female. 

How often do you think gender reassignment surgery happens on minors?

[airdvr 197]

2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

How often do you think gender reassignment surgery happens on minors?

I have no idea.  I hope not very often.

[gowlerk 1,904]

42 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

How often do you think gender reassignment surgery happens on minors?

Not nearly as often as children die accidentally from gun play. 

[Phil1111 910]

50 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Not nearly as often as children die accidentally from gun play. 

You and others from outside the US are probably wondering where this is all coming from. Well:Detransitioning becomes growing choice among young people after gender-affirming surgery December 19, 2022 , Multiple states crack down on transgender treatments for minors amid growing legal debate December 8, 2022 If I were a trans kid today: Here's what potentially saved my life November 28, 2022

So every week the US right makes gender the big story. For FOX pounding the table weekly keeps the base in line on the important issues of the day.

: Putin says teaching young children they can easily swap genders is a ‘borderline crime against humanity’ (A link to RT) So same thing in Russia. Putin's spokesman had this to say on the issue:. Tucker Carlson says gender-affirming care is ‘chemical castration’