Sexual orientation being "shoved down our throats"

[ryoder 1,380]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

I should be ashamed?  You should be ashamed for participating in a program that saddled 24 million with loans they cannot repay.  

Average Student Loan Debt
$1.75 trillion in total student loan debt (including federal and private loans)
$28,950 owed per borrower on average
About 92% of all student debt are federal student loans; the remaining amount is private student loans
55% of students from public four-year institutions had student loans
57% of students from private nonprofit four-year institutions took on education debt
Sources: Federal Reserve, The Institute for College Access and Success, College Board, MeasureOne

All this so perfessers like yourself can have fancy cars and aircraft.  Let he who is without sin....

 

When I graduated from college, I owed an amount equivalent to $27,322.96 (inflation-adjusted to 2022 dollars). My starting salary at my first permanent job was double the salary of the job I left to start college. I paid off that loan in 4 years.

[kallend 1,620]

41 minutes ago, ryoder said:

When I graduated from college, I owed an amount equivalent to $27,322.96 (inflation-adjusted to 2022 dollars). My starting salary at my first permanent job was double the salary of the job I left to start college. I paid off that loan in 4 years.

 

Not that it's relevant to this thread because going to college is optional, whereas sexual orientation isn't, but the engineers that I taught generally had starting salaries 3x higher than  loan debts.  The US averages for BS in mechanical engineering are starting salary $74,600, debt $24,500.  Seems like a decent investment to me.

I suspect he had Trump U. in mind.

Edited January 6, 2023 by kallend

[billvon 2,380]

5 hours ago, airdvr said:

I should be ashamed?  You should be ashamed for participating in a program that saddled 24 million with loans they cannot repay.  

Score:

Attempt to change subject to avoid a losing argument: 7/10
Attempt to use random numbers to prove a new point: 3/10
Attempt to "own" opponent by calling him a rich sinner after attacking college debt: 1/10

[airdvr 197]

50 minutes ago, billvon said:

Score:

Attempt to change subject to avoid a losing argument: 7/10
Attempt to use random numbers to prove a new point: 3/10
Attempt to "own" opponent by calling him a rich sinner after attacking college debt: 1/10

As soon as someone as intelligent as John says I should be ashamed we're going to talk about shame.

Sorry that I have no shame over not caring enough about a miniscule portion of the population when there are larger problems.  John loves to point out how it's statistically safer on the streets of Chicago, discounting the 600 or so shot dead year after year.  Last 10 years should be about 6,000 or so.  That fits the definition of miniscule.  Should he be ashamed of living there?

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

3 hours ago, ryoder said:

When I graduated from college, I owed an amount equivalent to $27,322.96 (inflation-adjusted to 2022 dollars). My starting salary at my first permanent job was double the salary of the job I left to start college. I paid off that loan in 4 years.

Hi Robert,

To get a college education is the best investment a person can make.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

 

Not that it's relevant to this thread because going to college is optional, whereas sexual orientation isn't, but the engineers that I taught generally had starting salaries 3x higher than  loan debts.  The US averages for BS in mechanical engineering are starting salary $74,600, debt $24,500.  Seems like a decent investment to me.

I suspect he had Trump U. in mind.

Hi John,

That is a big + from this Mech Engr.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

3 minutes ago, airdvr said:

As soon as someone as intelligent as John says I should be ashamed we're going to talk about shame.

Sorry that I have no shame over not caring enough about a miniscule portion of the population when there are larger problems.  John loves to point out how it's statistically safer on the streets of Chicago, discounting the 600 or so shot dead year after year.  Last 10 years should be about 6,000 or so.  That fits the definition of miniscule.  Should he be ashamed of living there?

Hi airdvr,

The Jews in Germany in the thirties were a small portion of the population also.

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,116]

7 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Sorry that I have no shame over not caring enough about a miniscule portion of the population when there are larger problems. 

Just don't object when they take care of their own issues, and you won't be part of their problem. That's all. It's OK just to be quiet.

Wendy P.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

6 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Just don't object when they take care of their own issues, and you won't be part of their problem. That's all. It's OK just to be quiet.

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

And, sometimes it is not:

The Nazi's first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.  Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.  Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up

because I was a Protestant.  Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Rev. Martin Niemoeller

Jerry Baumchen

 

[GeorgiaDon 340]

If anything university faculty are underpaid in comparison to the private sector.  I hope you do realize universities have to compete with the private sector to hire the most competent people.  Or perhaps you think it's preferable to have the next generation of doctors, engineers, etc trained by losers who have to settle for a low paying job because they can't compete for private sector jobs?

In addition to that, in the sciences (the real sciences, I can't speak for economics or political "science") you have to complete an undergraduate degree, often a Master's, always a PhD (a research PhD with a dissertation, not a coursework-only non-thesis degree), and at least a couple of postdoctoral fellowships.  The path is similar to, but a little longer than the path to specialization for a MD.  I was almost 40 before I was considered competitive for an entry level faculty position, and whenever we have a search to fill positions these days the candidates we interview are at least that old.  You do get paid as a postdoc, but that's in the $40-50,000 range and you are expected to put in 60-80+ hrs/week.  So no, I cannot agree that faculty should be ashamed of what they earn.

The biggest issue with college costs/student debt is that states used to cover a large fraction of the cost of running universities (and community colleges) but over the last few decades they have cut most of that, so more and more of the cost has to be shifted to tuition.  Also tuition is only a part of the cost of going to college, there is also rent, food, books, computers, and so on, and all of that has escalated sharply in cost.  When I was an undergrad I was able to earn enough working weekends and a couple of evening a week to cover my costs, so I graduated without significant debt.  That really is not possible these days.

 

[jakee 1,254]

56 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Sorry that I have no shame over not caring enough about a miniscule portion of the population when there are larger problems.  

But you do care. This entire line of discussion (a complete derailment of the OP, by the way) came about because you care about the miniscule number of transgender minors undergoing medical procedures who might regret it later in life so much that it was the only thing you could think to say in response to "Did you know there really aren't too many LGBT characters on TV?"

Why did you decide to start discussing this (and I quote directly) "when there are larger problems"?

 

(And a secondary question simply out of curiosity, when was the last time you had a self aware moment?)

Edited January 6, 2023 by jakee

[gowlerk 1,902]

15 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Or perhaps you think it's preferable to have the next generation of doctors, engineers, etc trained by losers who have to settle for a low paying job because they can't compete for private sector jobs?

As a grade eight graduate even I know that those who can do. Those who can't teach. 

[gowlerk 1,902]

22 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

The biggest issue with college costs/student debt is that states used to cover a large fraction of the cost of running universities (and community colleges) but over the last few decades they have cut most of that, so more and more of the cost has to be shifted to tuition.

Not so much in Canada, although it is a factor. The proportion of the population attending post secondary schools is always increasing making it more and more expensive for governments under huge pressure to keep taxes at a reasonable level.

Edited January 6, 2023 by gowlerk

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

As a grade eight graduate even I know that those who can do. Those who can't teach. 

Hi Ken,

That old saying is probably older than I am.  It is not true.

I had some great instructors that could have made more money if they had left the teaching profession.  I also had a few [ damn few ], who IMO could not.

The greatest instructor that I ever had left the profession for a number of years to go into land development.  Once, he made his 'fortune,' he returned to the classroom.

Jerry Baumchen

[airdvr 197]

I think possibly my post was a bit too harsh.  I thought I said that I didn't care what they identified as.  It's unfortunate for them but it won't get much thought from me.

[billvon 2,380]

21 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

As a grade eight graduate even I know that those who can do. Those who can't teach. 

A few examples here:

Andy Viterbi and Irwin Jacobs.  Both taught for years at MIT.  When I heard Andy Viterbi was starting a company I dropped what I was doing and moved out to California to be part of it.  If you have a cellphone, it contains a Viterbi decoder.

Woody Flowers.  Taught mechanical engineering at MIT for decades.  He also started the 2.70 contest (a mechanical engineering contest) that has given rise to almost every engineering contest out there.  Over time that morphed into a kid's robotics course, and then he (along with Dean Kamen) started the FIRST Robotics program, a program that teaches millions of kids basic engineering across the world.

Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University; he teaches battery chemistry.  I go to his talks whenever I get a chance.  He is why Tesla is able to sell cars that get 400 miles per charge.

John Kelly at Weber University.  As part of his automotive classes he does some of the best teardowns in the business, and I've learned a lot from watching him discuss hybrid car design.  (He also manages to do those teardowns from a wheelchair, which is impressive.)

Some others you may have heard of:

Richard Feynmann.  One of the reasons we got the nuclear bomb first.  Also came up with quantum mechanics.

Amar Bose.  You probably have listened to his sound systems on occasion.

Doc Edgerton.  If you have ever seen a picture of a bullet blowing an apple apart or popping a balloon - that was him.

Norbert Wiener.  He's the guy who gave rise to the term "absent minded professor."  There are many, many stories about how absent minded he was.  He also coined the term "cybernetics" and designed the first automated gun mount (the predecessor of today's Phalanx system.)  

[billvon 2,380]

11 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I think possibly my post was a bit too harsh.  I thought I said that I didn't care what they identified as.  It's unfortunate for them but it won't get much thought from me.

You also said that American women who were XY were men.  I guess as long as you keep that opinion to yourself, and don't try to impose that on (say) trans or mis-assigned kids and their families, no worries.

[gowlerk 1,902]

28 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

That old saying is probably older than I am.  It is not true.

Like all statements that rely on stereotypes it is not true but it reflects an element of truth. I knew it would draw a response from some people here. It was a bit of a troll I guess......

[GeorgiaDon 340]

33 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Like all statements that rely on stereotypes it is not true but it reflects an element of truth. I knew it would draw a response from some people here. It was a bit of a troll I guess......

So you think your doctor, for example, was trained by people too stupid to actually practice medicine themselves?  I'm surprised, I thought you were smarter than that.  Or not so trollish.

Anyway it is true that at university you will encounter a wide range of teaching ability.  Undergraduates as a rule are quite ignorant of the way the system works, and naturally assume they are the center of the universe.  Not so!  My responsibilities, for example, are 75% research (which means running a research lab, maintaining grant funding, training MSc, PhD, and postdoctoral students [paid off of the grants I have to get, not University funds], and publishing), 20% undergraduate and graduate teaching, and 5% service to committees etc.  That means that teaching ranks lower on the list of things I have to excel at when it comes to annual evaluations, promotion, and pay increases.  A former postdoctoral advisor of mine told me that if the undergrad students were not marching to the dean's office to demand that I be replaced as an instructor, I was doing that job well enough and any effort above that level was misdirected.  I do not share that perspective, and I consistently get good teaching evaluations, but that is because I am determined to not follow the footsteps of the bad teachers I suffered through.  I have probably been penalized for that though, because time spent polishing lectures or labs is time not spent writing grants, and grants = promotion whereas glowing teaching evaluations = pat on the back.  Not completely of course, but only research productivity will earn you promotion to full professor.  Good research will always trump bad teaching, but good teaching will never rescue you from poor research productivity.

Also we hire faculty based on their research record, not teaching.  Then we put them in front of a classroom, assuming they will just naturally be good at that if they are good at research.  When I was hired I was given no training in how to teach, and that is true of new hires even today.

So, when you encounter a bad teacher at university, it probably isn't because they are stupid or incompetent in general.  It is because they were hired as researchers, they are rewarded for research more than teaching, and they likely have no formal training as teachers.  Also, they are likely to be someone who did well in a traditional classroom setting (teacher lectures, students take notes) and they are predisposed to that sort of teaching environment, to the detriment of the large number of students who struggle with that teaching "style".  To some extent that is changing as universities try to encourage more interaction/experience based learning.

Edited January 6, 2023 by GeorgiaDon

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

37 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Like all statements that rely on stereotypes it is not true but it reflects an element of truth. I knew it would draw a response from some people here. It was a bit of a troll I guess......

Hi Ken,

IMO if a post gets us into a good discussion, then we are all better for it.

I learn a lot from posts on this website; even some that I disagree with.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  I tried walking on water once => Blub, blub

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by JerryBaumchen

[jakee 1,254]

57 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Like all statements that rely on stereotypes it is not true but it reflects an element of truth. I knew it would draw a response from some people here. It was a bit of a troll I guess......

But you're talking about university and Professors, and as GD just pointed out at that level those who can do, and those who teach also do - a lot.

[gowlerk 1,902]

21 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

So you think your doctor, for example, was trained by people too stupid to actually practice medicine themselves?  I'm surprised, I thought you were smarter than that.  Or not so trollish.

It was just a reaction to the long standing question of compensation within private industry and academe. Each has it's own set of risks and rewards. Do you want the most money? Or do you want the opportunity to do cutting edge research often sponsored by private industry anyway? But for less money. We are talking about highly driven ambitious and competitive people here. None are stupid. 

[kallend 1,620]

3 hours ago, airdvr said:

As soon as someone as intelligent as John says I should be ashamed we're going to talk about shame.

Sorry that I have no shame over not caring enough about a miniscule portion of the population when there are larger problems.  John loves to point out how it's statistically safer on the streets of Chicago, discounting the 600 or so shot dead year after year.  Last 10 years should be about 6,000 or so.  That fits the definition of miniscule.  Should he be ashamed of living there?

Oooh  - the first distraction backfired on you so you try another.

Do you realize how pathetic that is?

[gowlerk 1,902]

3 hours ago, airdvr said:

As soon as someone as intelligent as John says I should be ashamed we're going to talk about shame.

Because two wrongs will then make a right? I believe I said earlier that shaming people is never helpful. I will add that responding to someone attempting to shame you is also never helpful.

[airdvr 197]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Oooh  - the first distraction backfired on you so you try another.

Do you realize how pathetic that is?

You and I have reached an age where sometimes pathetic is a good descriptor.  When you said I should be ashamed it hit a nerve.  If I'm supposed to be ashamed of things the line is long.  You'll have to go to the end.