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JerryBaumchen

Assisted Suicide

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Hi folks,

Since I started the thread on Capital Punishment, this issue is in the news today:  Ban on assisted suicide not against European Convention on Human Rights, court rules | NL Times

I live in Oregon & we have it as a matter of law; even if there are quite a few very stringent conditions that have to be met.

Earlier this year, a long-time friend called me & told me about a guy from our high school days that shot himself.  He was dying of cancer & decided to end things early.

What are your thoughts on Assisted Suicide?

Jerry Baumchen

 

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11 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Doctor approved, seconded by an independent doctor. Irreparable deterioration of quality of life.

The MAID program is Canada more or less is what you are saying. (which you probably know) It is still evolving and more changes are probably coming. It has basically been driven by our Supreme Court telling the government that it must find a way to pass appropriate rules recognizing that citizens have a right to this and that there needs to be clear rules to prevent abuse. A stumbling block still not dealt with is a way to help people who are not yet 18 years old but are in a place where they may have good reason for wanting the end to come.

https://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/end-of-life-support/get-the-facts-on-maid/

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5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The MAID program is Canada more or less is what you are saying. (which you probably know) It is still evolving and more changes are probably coming. It has basically been driven by our Supreme Court telling the government that it must find a way to pass appropriate rules recognizing that citizens have a right to this and that there needs to be clear rules to prevent abuse. A stumbling block still not dealt with is a way to help people who are not yet 18 years old but are in a place where they may have good reason for wanting the end to come.

https://www.dyingwithdignity.ca/end-of-life-support/get-the-facts-on-maid/

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the link.  As with all countries on this issue, it is an on-going effort with the details to be determined. 

I would expect that as we learn more, the laws/regs, etc will evolve; as they should.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Every year I donate to a Death With Dignity organization.

 

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3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Doctor approved, seconded by an independent doctor. Irreparable deterioration of quality of life.

Why does it need to be medical ? Anyone should be able to decide about how their life should end. Should be motivated in written or in video or any other way. 

and it is cleaner for the people who have to deal with the immediate consequences of body removal/disposal. 
 

Have several people in my close surroundings who have chosen to end their lives before illness would kill them in terrible circumstances 

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20 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Because for me there has to be an evaluation of why somebody wants to end their life. We do have to protect people from themselves to some degree.

More importantly, we’re talking about assisted suicide — people who need help, which in most jurisdictions would be considered murder. You don’t want someone to decide for granny that she’s ready to go when she can’t just do it herself. She has to decide, and if a doctor is going to help, then she’s going to want to be darn sure it’s the right thing to do

Wendy P. 

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I'm 100% for it, but as others have mentioned, with enough checks to ensure it's the best option for the person choosing it, without so much getting in the way that it's not *really* an available option.

If I get something like an Alzheimer's diagnosis, I'm not sticking around to the end. That's not fair on my wife and friends, and the transitionary phase - while I'm still aware enough to know that I'm losing my mind - is a nightmare to me.

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6 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

We tend to treat our animals better than our elders.

You have no idea the toll it takes on the veterinary providers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4266064/

A doctor usually has a deep commitment to their oath. What toll would it take on them?

What can of worms are we opening here. 

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7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Also strongly in favour, but less sure about what the rules should be. 

Above 80, just for the asking. Above 70, go think about it for a week. Above 60, yes if you post on DZ.com otherwise we need a note from your doctor. Above 50, a note from your doctor and you get 25000 air miles. Seriously, the whole death with dignity, capital punishment conversation is absurd. Nitrogen capsules are humane and 100% effective. No matter if you are a deserving murderer fuck head or someone just done with the experiment the capsule is the solution.

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I used to think it was a good idea.  Now I'm not so sure.  We don't seem to be able to get a moral grip on capital punishment.  I doubt it would work any better.  There is also Hospice which is supposed to give you relief.

If the person how wants to die is mentally incapacitated who decides?  Family?  My family can't agree on what day it is.  Or a family member looking to cash in on the inheritance.

 

Edited by airdvr

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

 

If the person how wants to die is mentally incapacitated who decides?  

 

Thats always going to be a tough one, but there are loads of situations that are much simpler, where people have mental capacity but such a low quality of life that this can be a much kinder way out. We shouldn't try and solve for every situation from day one.

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18 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

What are your thoughts on Assisted Suicide?

 

To me there are two issues: Assisted Suicide = those that can't do it themselves, and Death with Dignity = those that are physically capable and have a declining condition or poor life quality. Or whatever other terms are appropriate. Sometimes it would be difficult to place a person in one category or the other.

I've witnessed two miserable deaths. One was a person with pancreatic cancer that chose to not take chemo. She chose hospice at home, declined over three weeks, was kept somewhat comfortable with drugs, in the end being unable to eat or swallow dehydration occurred and death. The other was Alzheimer's. The person that he was known to be disappeared over time, physically declined, less walking, then a wheelchair, finally became bedridden. That brings on other medical issues. By this point all dignity was gone. Loss of ability to eat, dehydration and death. Both were a miserably slow process. Those two were my in laws.  

Also witnessed the results of Parkinsons with my father. he was a college athlete, Navy war vet and an active senior. The disease took his ability to control his body. He researched methods to die. Before that occurred he suffered a medical issue associated with Parkinson's, was ambulanced to the ER, an improper procedure was performed and he died.

In the case with the first two there wasn't a discussion about ending it early. With my father he was nearing the point where, I believe, he would have done something. 

If legal options were available I believe that some people would make that decision, and they should have the right to.

As you said, "The devil is in the details."

 

 

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14 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You have no idea the toll it takes on the veterinary providers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4266064/

A doctor usually has a deep commitment to their oath. What toll would it take on them?

What can of worms are we opening here. 

I am aware of the high suicide rate amongst veterinary providers and the struggles they face. I am not aware of any study that has linked that suicide rate to the act of ending an animal's suffering. My, admittedly anecdotally based, opinion is that it relates much more to the stress of dealing with humans and how those humans treat animals. In other words, I am not sure how valid the comparison you are trying to me is.

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5 hours ago, airdvr said:

If the person how wants to die is mentally incapacitated who decides?

There are already established procedures for this. Though my understanding is that in most jurisdictions assisted suicide can only be requested by the patient themselves. After that the Power of Attorney, based on the wishes of the patient, can decide to kill the patient through starvation, dehydration or withholding required medication. Somehow we are much more at ease with ourselves when our loved ones get to suffer at the end.

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21 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

We tend to treat our animals better than our elders. I am a strong proponent of Assisted Suicide.

We had a cat that had an episode where he was laying still and wouldn't or couldn't move.  After a little while he was fine and back to normal.  Some time later the same thing happened again.  As I recall, it happened a third time and again he went back to normal.  We took him to the vet for an exam and it turned out he was throwing blood clots.  The vet said there were things we could try but they were very expensive and not likely to be successful.  While we were there, we decided to have him euthanized.  While were sitting there with him in our lap waiting for the vet to come give him a shot, he threw another clot.  It was really sad but it was the right thing to do.  

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This discussion is timely as I am organizing my affairs to make it easier for my nephew to execute my estate after I am gone.

I knew two elderly gentlemen who refused food and liquids after being diagnosed with cancer.

I watched my own mother die in hospital. She signed a do not resusitate order a few months before her death. 

I last visited my father in a nursing home a month before he died of cancer, etc. It was sad the way he lost his mind in later years.

An old friend has recently been diagnosed with early stage dimentia. It is sad to see a previously bright friend lose his short term memory.

I do not want to linger, nor do I want to be a burden on my nephew. So I must collect and sign the appropriate papers for MAID. Hopefully, that day is another 20 years in the future.

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12 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

This discussion is timely as I am organizing my affairs to make it easier for my nephew to execute my estate after I am gone.

Yep. My father had a friend who, at 93, just decided she was done. Her health was OK except for diabetes and age, but she couldn't party or ride a motorcycle any more, and she'd outlived her daughter and the vast majority of her friends. She stopped taking her diabetes medication and that was it after a couple of weeks. While I really liked her, she'd decided that the things that were important to HER were no longer available.

I've had a couple of friends who died horrible deaths from cancer, where they were in too much pain to travel to where assisted suicide is legal, and they just had to wait to die from the cancer. It came more suddenly than they'd expected for both of them.

Assisted means that they're not able to keep down the pills if they just take too many (or no longer physically able to manage the bottle etc); or they're not physically strong enough to fire a gun or something. Not to mention that firing a gun is messy, and makes it much harder for the survivors.

We can't all bounce, eh?

Wendy P.

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20 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I am aware of the high suicide rate amongst veterinary providers and the struggles they face. I am not aware of any study that has linked that suicide rate to the act of ending an animal's suffering. My, admittedly anecdotally based, opinion is that it relates much more to the stress of dealing with humans and how those humans treat animals. In other words, I am not sure how valid the comparison you are trying to me is.

 

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

It's called the "Caring Killing Paradox

I didn't read beyond the abstract on the first page, but 'shelter euthanization' is often healthy animals put down due to a lack of space & resources.
I volunteer at a local cat rescue, and we have taken in a LOT of what we call 'euthanization transfers' in the past year.
These are mostly healthy cats who are going to be put down at other shelters. Often older, 'not pretty' (scars, missing limbs, ect), these are cats with less chance of quick adoption. We have a friend who is in contact with shelters all over the region. She will get in touch with our staff and tell us 'there are 8 cats in Chicago that will be put down on Tuesday. Can you take any?' If we have the space, we take them, get them evaluated and up for adoption. Some get good homes, some stay at the shelter until they pass away.
The vet on staff at the rescue is adamant about spay/neuter. She has posted on FB repeatedly about how hard it is on shelter workers to put down healthy animals due to space & resources, and then see backyard breeders trying to sell puppies & kittens. 

That's a LOT different than ending the suffering of an animal that will die soon anyway. 

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53 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

That's a LOT different than ending the suffering of an animal that will die soon anyway. 

I'm very familiar with the cat/dog rescue scenario. We have a rescue foundation. Same rules. A point being, the "Caring Killing Paradox" of one caring for critters throughout their lifetime and then having to put them down. 100's of them. It wears on the veterinary provider and is why they have the second highest suicide vocational rate. And, when a fellow veterinarian takes their own life; the entire vet community hears about it - causing an additional psychological/emotional affect. Especially, if that person was known as a strong individual. 

The main point being the psychological/emotional toll it will take on healthcare workers to perform assisted suicide on people and it's long-term effects. That should be a moral concern. 

PTSD doesn't just affect the military. 

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