Capital Punishment

[JerryBaumchen 1,273]

Hi folks,

The Governor of Oregon has just commuted the death sentences of everyone [ 17 total ] on Death Row here in Oregon:  Outgoing Oregon governor commutes death row sentences, orders execution chamber dismantled - OPB 

I am interested in how people feel about death sentences; particularly, the non- US folks on here.

Thoughts????????????//

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,739]

5 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I am interested in how people feel about death sentences; particularly, the non- US folks on here.

I am OK with the death penalty for specific crimes (mass murder) in theory,  However I am only OK with it if we have a perfect, or close to perfect, justice system.  We don't have that yet.  So until we do, I am against the current implementations of the death penalty.

[gowlerk 2,103]

21 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I am interested in how people feel about death sentences; particularly, the non- US folks on here.

There are definitely people who deserve to die for the things that they have done. But that is beside the point for me. I am against government killing because it is too much power to give to the government. And recently it has come to my attention that running the machinery of death in prisons is a big source of PTSD for many involved in carrying it out. Overall I don't think it is morally wrong to punish by death, but rather that it is better for all of us not to do so. It has always been inconsistent in its application and there is always the chance of mistakes in guilt to consider. We are better off without it as long as we can afford the cost of lifetime incarceration. Which practically means that unless our civilization is in existential crisis we don't need it.  

[Baksteen 84]

I agree with Gowlerk, but I also think that the death penalty is 'too easy' for the perpetrator.

But having said that, a lifelong incarceration for crimes currently punishable by death should indeed be lifelong. Not 30 years with option of parole.

I also feel that punishments for what I view as truly heinous crimes such as rape and pedophilia are way too light. But that is a different discussion.

[Stumpy 283]

It's a barbaric, mistake prone process that serves no real purpose other than to "punish" someone to make the victims relatives and bloodthirsty onlookers feel better.

It's more expensive than life in prison I believe,

It's irreversible and I suspect the wrong people get caught more often than they should.

All civilised societies no longer do this..

[Phil1111 1,085]

Putin, Kim, Ali Khamenei, type mass murders, yes.

[wmw999 2,318]

2 hours ago, Stumpy said:

It's a barbaric, mistake prone process that serves no real purpose other than to "punish" someone to make the victims relatives and bloodthirsty onlookers feel better.

It's more expensive than life in prison I believe,

It's irreversible and I suspect the wrong people get caught more often than they should.

All civilised societies no longer do this..

Exactly this. In theory, maybe. But people have ulterior motives, and those will come out in practice. So nope. It doesn't elevate us to want to kill someone else. But then I also think that many (no, not all) serious criminals have such terrible mental health problems that a brilliant lawyer could get a diminished capacity ruling on them, and we need a way to have people who are that mentally ill segregated, too.

Any system is eventually going to be abused; lots of people spend their lives and mental energy trying to game the system. So let's make it one that isn't terminal, eh?

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,739]

8 hours ago, Stumpy said:

It's a barbaric, mistake prone process that serves no real purpose other than to "punish" someone to make the victims relatives and bloodthirsty onlookers feel better.

It serves the additional purposes of ensuring that a mass murderer cannot kill anyone else, and providing a strong deterrent to such behavior.  I count those as having value.  The value of making people feel better about the crime is zero (to me.)

[gowlerk 2,103]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

It serves the additional purposes of ensuring that a mass murderer cannot kill anyone else, and providing a strong deterrent to such behavior. 

It does do the first, but only for the very small number actually executed. Most people who have studied that matter do not believe it is a more effective deterrent than the other sanctions that society imposes. 

 

8 minutes ago, billvon said:

The value of making people feel better about the crime is zero (to me.)

Me too. But make no mistake about it, if given the opportunity to pull the switch, fire the shot, place the noose or whatever the method I do not think I would hesitate to take revenge on someone who harmed one of the people closest to me. I am somewhat of a hypocrite on the matter. Emotions are often stronger than moral beliefs.

[JerryBaumchen 1,273]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It does do the first, but only for the very small number actually executed. Most people who have studied that matter do not believe it is a more effective deterrent than the other sanctions that society imposes. 

 

Me too. But make no mistake about it, if given the opportunity to pull the switch, fire the shot, place the noose or whatever the method I do not think I would hesitate to take revenge on someone who harmed one of the people closest to me. I am somewhat of a hypocrite on the matter. Emotions are often stronger than moral beliefs.

Hi Ken,

Re:  it is a more effective deterrent

This is what I often wonder about.  I am not student of murders in this country; however, I do think that many [ if not, most ] tend to be crimes of passion.  IMO at that point, the killer will not function rationally.

From some of what I have read over the years, a life sentence in isolation [ ala Super Max ] might just be a far worse punishment.

Back a couple of lifetimes ago, when I was in Basic Training in the military, SSGT Don A. Willocks told us that he considered life in prison a worse sentence than the death penalty. *

Jerry Baumchen

* There are some things one never forgets.

PS)  Here is some info on, what I think, is the most prolific killer in Oregon history:  Dayton Leroy Rogers - Wikipedia

Note this at the end:  On November 12, 2021, his death sentence was overturned for the fourth time. This was due in part to a new law signed by Governor Kate Brown, which limited the amount of aggravating factors required for seeking the death penalty.

 

[riggerrob 602]

12 hours ago, Baksteen said:

I agree with Gowlerk, but I also think that the death penalty is 'too easy' for the perpetrator.

But having said that, a lifelong incarceration for crimes currently punishable by death should indeed be lifelong. Not 30 years with option of parole.

I also feel that punishments for what I view as truly heinous crimes such as rape and pedophilia are way too light. But that is a different discussion.

Criminals tend to be paroled after 30 years for two reasons.

First, after age 50, their testosterone levels have declined and they are less likely to re-offend ... partly because they now lack the  muscle mass to over-power victims.

The second motivation is financial. Prisons are trying to avoid the high cost of medical services to prisoners over age 60. Medical problems tend to worsen after age 50 and chronic care can get expensive. Prison administrators do not want the high cost of caring for chronic diabetics, heart attack suffers, COPD, MS, cancer, etc. Feeble prisoners are at greater risk of being victimized by younger prisoners. 

Finally, consider the reduced life span of long term prisoners. Many of them die at age 60, considerably below the national average.

[normiss 724]

1 minute ago, riggerrob said:

Criminals tend to be paroled after 30 years for two reasons.

First, after age 50, their testosterone levels have declined and they are less likely to re-offend ... partly because they now lack the  muscle mass to over-power victims.

The second motivation is financial. Prisons are trying to avoid the high cost of medical services to prisoners over age 60. Medical problems tend to worsen after age 50 and chronic care can get expensive. Prison administrators do not want the high cost of caring for chronic diabetics, heart attack suffers, COPD, MS, cancer, etc. Feeble prisoners are at greater risk of being victimized by younger prisoners. 

Finally, consider the reduced life span of long term prisoners. Many of them die at age 60, considerably below the national average.

We shouldn't have for profit prisons either. More financial reasons than legal reasons seems to lead their thinking.

Even some State guidelines on incarceration are odd. Unless it's been changed, Ii Florida, if you're taken to jail, you will stay there for a minimum of 48 hours in order for the county to receive State funds for the cost of housing you.

This simple rule has cost people their jobs, which can create a cascade of financial disaster for them.

[wmw999 2,318]

1 hour ago, normiss said:

We shouldn't have for profit prisons either. More financial reasons than legal reasons seems to lead their thinking.

Even some State guidelines on incarceration are odd. Unless it's been changed, Ii Florida, if you're taken to jail, you will stay there for a minimum of 48 hours in order for the county to receive State funds for the cost of housing you.

This simple rule has cost people their jobs, which can create a cascade of financial disaster for them.

I approve of this post 100%

Wendy P.

[piisfish 137]

In some cases, it should be done fast and cheap. Before the condemned criminal cost millions to the taxpayers, and earn these millions to the prison system. 

[billvon 2,739]

13 minutes ago, piisfish said:

In some cases, it should be done fast and cheap. Before the condemned criminal cost millions to the taxpayers, and earn these millions to the prison system. 

Unfortunately it can be fast, cheap, accurate and fair - pick any two.

[kallend 1,827]

The state should not be in the business of killing people. 

[riggerrob 602]

Dear Stumpy,

Execution is more expensive than life in prison because ^%$#@! lawyers drive up the cost of execution with lengthy mandatory appeals, etc.

^%$#@! lawyers also drive up the cost by trying to make execution "humane." I suspect that "humane" means less trauma for prison staff ... the same reason that the SS switched to gas chambers during World War 2. It seems that too many SS prison guards suffered PTSD when they simply shot Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, political prisoners, etc.

Hah! Compared with what? Compared with the ways that their victims suffered?

Police and soldiers have long had rifles capable of executing someone quickly and inexpensively.

I believe that a handful of the worst serial killers deserve execution because they are too crazy to ever be rehabilitated.

[Stumpy 283]

46 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

drive up the cost of execution with lengthy mandatory appeals,

Good. Killing people in the name of "justice" absolutely should NOT be easy. Particularly given the chances of getting it wrong.

[jakee 1,351]

23 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Dear Stumpy,

Execution is more expensive than life in prison because ^%$#@! lawyers drive up the cost of execution with lengthy mandatory appeals, etc.

^%$#@! lawyers also drive up the cost by trying to make execution "humane." I suspect that "humane" means less trauma for prison staff ... the same reason that the SS switched to gas chambers during World War 2. It seems that too many SS prison guards suffered PTSD when they simply shot Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists, political prisoners, etc.

Hah! Compared with what? Compared with the ways that their victims suffered?

Police and soldiers have long had rifles capable of executing someone quickly and inexpensively.

I believe that a handful of the worst serial killers deserve execution because they are too crazy to ever be rehabilitated.

Oh my god, how dare those asshole lawyers try and stop innocent people from being executed. How on earth do those bastards sleep at night?

Here’s an uncomfortable thought, the worst crimes with the most pressure to ‘solve’ are the most likely to have some poor sap railroaded into making a false confession, or convicted based on an overheard ‘confession’ passed on by a jailhouse snitch in exchange for early release.

Hell, imagine how many real murderers might have been caught if the asshole lefty lawyers were listened to and the police and prosecutors stopped focusing on sending down their chosen stooge and actually looked for the perpetrator.

[nigel99 296]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:27 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

The Governor of Oregon has just commuted the death sentences of everyone [ 17 total ] on Death Row here in Oregon:  Outgoing Oregon governor commutes death row sentences, orders execution chamber dismantled - OPB 

I am interested in how people feel about death sentences; particularly, the non- US folks on here.

Thoughts????????????//

Jerry Baumchen

It's an interesting topic. The last couple of years I've been doing a psychology degree with a minor in criminal psychology and as a result some of my views have changed.

I think that we should be trying to rehabilitate people and from what I can see there is very little evidence that prisons work. In cases where there is no chance of rehabilitation I think it should be an option. 

However the US legal system appears to be totally dysfunctional and I'm not sure that it could be trusted to not have significant bias. A system that has the power to take life should be fair and get the same results regardless of wealth or race.

It amazes me that politicians and policy makers disregard the scientific evidence regarding the treatment of crime and the causes of crime in order to appease public opinion. I can only speak for Western Australia, but our premier routinely brings out policy that the science shows is counter productive. 

[lippy 869]

3 hours ago, nigel99 said:

It amazes me that politicians and policy makers disregard the scientific evidence regarding the treatment of crime and the causes of crime in order to appease public opinion. 

If it makes you feel any better, crime isn't the only area in which they disregard science and evidence.

[wmw999 2,318]

People go by gut feeling. Gut feeling is unrelated to science. They want the good guys to win, and the bad guys to lose. However, "good guy" and "bad guy" tend to be closely correlated either with "like me or someone I can identify with," or "has a lot of money and can explain the story well and have it listened to."

Kinda like how it takes 12 jurors, not 1 or 2. But even so, they're still humans, and might identify with groups.

Wendy P.

[skybytch 259]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:43 AM, wmw999 said:

Kinda like how it takes 12 jurors, not 1 or 2. But even so, they're still humans, and might identify with groups.

I was one of 12 who made a life/death decision in a capital murder case. Gut feeling of all of us was the POS pulled the trigger. The DA didn't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The science didn't show what we needed to see to decide anything other than life without possibility of parole.

We were all white and so was the defendant.  He grew up in the same middle class suburban white world most of the jury did. We could see the wrong turns he took. There was even some compassion expressed for his family and their "loss " of a son.

I wonder how many prisoners he's shanked since then. He'd only paralyzed one before our decision was made.

I like to think we'd have made the same decision if he had not been white. That's the thing that makes me uncomfortable about capital punishment in the US.

Edited December 20, 2022 by skybytch

[wmw999 2,318]

Good post. That must have been hard, but yeah, that bar is very high

Wendy P. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,273]

5 hours ago, skybytch said:

I was one of 12 who made a life/death decision in a capital murder case. Gut feeling of all of us was the POS pulled the trigger. The DA didn't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The science didn't show what we needed to see to decide anything other than life without possibility of parole.

We were all white and so was the defendant.  He grew up in the same middle class suburban white world most of the jury did. We could see the wrong turns he took. There was even some compassion expressed for his family and their "loss " of a son.

I wonder how many prisoners he's shanked since then. He'd only paralyzed one before our decision was made.

I like to think we'd have made the same decision if he had not been white. That's the thing that makes me uncomfortable about capital punishment in the US.

Hi Sky,

Re:   beyond a shadow of a doubt

I believe that in most states the standard is 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'

That makes it rather subjective.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited December 20, 2022 by JerryBaumchen