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brenthutch

Brittney Griner

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29 minutes ago, Coreece said:

You wouldn't know what a 'so called christian' was if he got up and punched you in the face, so stop trying to con me into thinking you actually care about that.

Ron has been preaching the love of God through Jesus Christ and the repentance of sin which is what's referenced in the selected scripture above.  People are free to reject that, but don't try to pretend that scripture doesn't call out sexual immorality as sin, regardless of your preference.

The ones harboring hate and judgement in this thread are people like you, doug and normiss.

Hi Coreece,

Re:  . . . sin . . .

It would appear to me that you are a Christian.  What do you define as 'sin?'

Feel free to quote from any source.

Just wondering.

Jerry Baumchen

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

It would appear to me that you are a Christian.

Ya well it's not always easy and scripture says that we should search our heart to make sure of that, on an ongoing basis:

2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"

2 Peter 1:10-11 - "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Galatians 6:9 - "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Hebrews 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."

 

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted."

 

 

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

What do you define as 'sin?'

Sin is generally defined as any thought, word, or action that goes against God's Will/Word and is considered to be a rebellion against God. 

Throughout scripture there are many different types described, including lying, stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, blasphemy along with the 'works of the flesh' such as sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

These sins are often contrasted with virtues such as honesty, generosity, humility, love and 'the fruit of the spirit' such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Christ emphasizes the importance of repentance and forgiveness of sins. He teaches that sin not only involves actions but also thoughts and attitudes of the heart. He also emphasizes the importance of loving God and loving others, which are central to living a life free from sin.

Overall it teaches that sin is a universal human problem and that all people fall short of God's perfect standards. However, through faith in Jesus Christ, people can be forgiven  and restored to a right relationship with God.  

I think the many people single out homosexuality because it's like the one of maybe a few sins that they don't commit, if not the only sin.  So it might give some a sense of self righteousness. But I think the main reason is that people are trying to say that it's not sin - and by doing so could prevent others from truly experiencing the power and love of God in their life and in the next. And I think there are many out there that want such a relationship.  So let it be.
 

Edited by Coreece

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15 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Sin is generally defined as any thought, word, or action that goes against God's Will/Word and is considered to be a rebellion against God. 

Don't you belong to a sect that divides sin into categories, venial and mortal? I believe they charge a different fee for each and other "indulgences". 

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4 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Don't you belong to a sect that divides sin into categories, venial and mortal? I believe they charge a different fee for each and other "indulgences". 

Well, like you I was baptized into that when I was a baby, if you're referring to Catholicism.  Those indulgences are one of the things that sparked the reformation. They still may be counting me as a member after all these years, but I don't really identify with the Catholic church anymore.

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41 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Ya well it's not always easy and scripture says that we should search our heart to make sure of that, on an ongoing basis:

2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"

2 Peter 1:10-11 - "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Galatians 6:9 - "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Hebrews 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."

 

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted."

 

 

Sin is generally defined as any thought, word, or action that goes against God's Will/Word and is considered to be a rebellion against God. 

Throughout scripture there are many different types described, including lying, stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, blasphemy along with the 'works of the flesh' such as sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

These sins are often contrasted with virtues such as honesty, generosity, humility, love and 'the fruit of the spirit' such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Christ emphasizes the importance of repentance and forgiveness of sins. He teaches that sin not only involves actions but also thoughts and attitudes of the heart. He also emphasizes the importance of loving God and loving others, which are central to living a life free from sin.

Overall it teaches that sin is a universal human problem and that all people fall short of God's perfect standards. However, through faith in Jesus Christ, people can be forgiven  and restored to a right relationship with God.  

I think the many people single out homosexuality because it's like the one of maybe a few sins that they don't commit, if not the only sin.  So it might give some a sense of self righteousness. But I think the main reason is that people are trying to say that it's not sin - and by doing so could prevent others from truly experiencing the power and love of God in their life and in the next. And I think there are many out there that want such a relationship.  So let it be.
 

Hi Coreece,

Thanks for taking the time to provide your reply.  I do appreciate it.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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11 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Well, like you I was baptized into that when I was a baby, if you're referring to Catholicism.  Those indulgences are one of the things that sparked the reformation. They still may be counting me as a member after all these years, but I don't really identify with the Catholic church anymore.

I was baptized Anglican, almost as corrupt. The point is that arguing about the meaning of the bible, whatever version you chose, is pointless. I try not to poke fun or point out the ridiculousness of your and Ron's and anyone else's supernatural beliefs because it is pointless as well. What I do is point out that they are all equally false. Sometimes I do fail. I don't object to christian beliefs, I object to christians thinking and behaving as if their belief system should dominate in the public sphere just because they have higher numbers than others. I don't really care what the bible says about morality, I have my own moral values and they are not offended by the idea of consenting adults enjoying sex acts with each other. Even if those acts have no chance of furthering procreation.

Edited by gowlerk
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29 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I was baptized Anglican, almost as corrupt. The point is that arguing about the meaning of the bible, whatever version you chose, is pointless. I try not to poke fun or point out the ridiculousness of your and Ron's and anyone else's supernatural beliefs because it is pointless as well. What I do is point out that they are all equally false. Sometimes I do fail. I don't object to christian beliefs, I object to christians thinking and behaving as if their belief system should dominate in the public sphere just because they have higher numbers than others. I don't really care what the bible says about morality, I have my own moral values and they are not offended by the idea of consenting adults enjoying sex acts with each other. Even if those acts have no chance of furthering procreation.

spacer.png

"Islam is growing more rapidly than any other religion in the world, according to a new report by the Pew Research Center that says the religion will nearly equal Christianity by 2050 before eclipsing it around 2070,"..."

A new study from the Pew Research Center shows that America's Christian majority has been shrinking for years, and if recent trends continue, Christians could make up less than half the U.S. population within a few decades.

The study found that Christians accounted for about 90% of the population 50 years ago, but as of 2020 that figure had slumped to about 64%.

"If recent trends in switching [changing one's religious affiliation] hold, we projected that Christians could make up between 35% and 46% of the U.S. population in 2070," said Stephanie Kramer, the senior researcher who led the study."

You're just an early adapter of science and fact. The worship of christ is dying out. Soon Imams will be buying up the old churches where the worship of the christian god has died out. Contractors will put minarets on them to replace the steeple and cross. After that the televangelists will have to sell their jets. Finally even heaven and hell will have to close.

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9 hours ago, Coreece said:

You wouldn't know what a 'so called christian' was if he got up and punched you in the face, so stop trying to con me into thinking you actually care about that.

Lol, where did that come from?

9 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ron has been preaching the love of God through Jesus Christ and the repentance of sin which is what's referenced in the selected scripture above.  People are free to reject that, but don't try to pretend that scripture doesn't call out sexual immorality as sin, regardless of your preference.

No, I’m saying that Ron doesn’t actually care what the bible says about morality, he’s just pretending. Again, he has explicitly claimed to like and approve of Donald Trump because he’s a greedy swindler. Ron says that makes him a winner. When Ron says he has a problem with homosexuality because of what’s said in the bible he’s obviously lying. 
 

9 hours ago, Coreece said:

The ones harboring hate and judgement in this thread are people like you, doug and normiss.

Lol, again what? How lazy are you being right now?

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8 hours ago, Coreece said:

Sin is generally defined as any thought, word, or action that goes against God's Will/Word and is considered to be a rebellion against God. 

So it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with not being good to people?

8 hours ago, Coreece said:

These sins are often contrasted with virtues such as honesty, generosity, humility, love and 'the fruit of the spirit' such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

But to be clear, homosexuality is contrasted with none of those things. From a human to human point of view there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

8 hours ago, Coreece said:

I think the many people single out homosexuality because it's like the one of maybe a few sins that they don't commit, if not the only sin.  So it might give some a sense of self righteousness. But I think the main reason is that people are trying to say that it's not sin - and by doing so could prevent others from truly experiencing the power and love of God in their life and in the next. And I think there are many out there that want such a relationship.  So let it be.

So not only is the Christian concept of sin not necessarily concerned with what is actually moral or good, the many Christians who argue against homosexuality absolutely are not concerned with what is moral or good, they've just singled out gay people as a group they can victimise to feel better about their own sinful lives that are actually damaging to other people?

I didn't think you were going to be so up front about it, to be honest. So why are you defending Ron if you think that's what he's doing?

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Why are so many "Christians" so preoccupied with what other people do with their sex organs?  It really is none of their business.

Quoting a bad translation of the views of a neolithic tribe some 2,000 years ago is not justification.

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1 hour ago, kallend said:

Why are so many "Christians" so preoccupied with what other people do with their sex organs?  It really is none of their business.

Quoting a bad translation of the views of a neolithic tribe some 2,000 years ago is not justification.

I understand religion and sexual orientation that differs from my own in an abstract sense.  In practice I just don't get it.

You're having two way conversations with an invisible friend - you're joking, right?

You want to have sex with WHAT?  Come on, you're pulling my leg.

Anyhow, so long as either group leaves children out of it, and doesn't expect my approval, financial support or participation, I'm okay with it.

Legislation based on either set of delusions or affinities is problematic.  Legalizing polygamous marriage to barnyard animals due to a religious mandate brings up all sorts of problems with the tax code for instance, though it makes as much sense as most anything religious.  Credo quia absurdum and all that.

One should be polite around religious people, given their historic propensity to inflict violence upon those whose faith differs or is absent.  I prefer to be spared the particulars of such individuals as the guy who married his dog; I prefer to assume that was a goof and leave it at that.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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2 hours ago, kallend said:

Why are so many "Christians" so preoccupied with what other people do with their sex organs?  It really is none of their business.

Quoting a bad translation of the views of a neolithic tribe some 2,000 years ago is not justification.

Yet when there is push back against the endless insanity and hatred of religion, they simply regurgitate the endless insanity that makes no sense how or when it was translated by man, repeatedly.

It's disgusting and getting old. 

To Coreese's attacks on those of us who disagree, it's not hatred for me. I'm just sick of hearing the cult chants, and then getting the cult chants for complaining about the cult chants because it's all I've ever heard. The threats of torture for not loving the cult has disgusted me since I was a kid watching people squirming on the floor babbling out indiscernible noises while the preacher dude is screaming for money. The so called christians I've known, by and large, are not good people. I tend to not want to associate with cult members. Having seen the life experiences of some humans around the world, god can go fuck himself. Is that like a self eating watermelon?

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(edited)

Sigh....this was about Brittney Griner, why do we always end up on religion?

 

Edit, i know why. Because after thread was nearly dead Ron tossed a smoke grenade into the room and we all put on our gas masks and took up the fight. Looking back I can see that Ron does not believe she is female, and yet feels she is a homosexual sinner because she is married to a woman. That is the twisted world view some people can hold.  

Edited by gowlerk
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(edited)
14 hours ago, Coreece said:

The ones harboring hate and judgement in this thread are people like you, doug and normiss.

Many Christians, Muslims, and other religious types judge and spread hate because of peoples sexuality. 

Here is the math on that...

Hate, casting judgement, holding prejudices is a willful reprehensible choice, it is immoral.

Owning your own sexuality is not.  

So if you are a religious type who willfully acts in terrible ways to other people simply because they are being their own true selves then I will judge and hate you for being an overall shitty human being. I don't hate people for being religious, I hate certain people for their actions. Big difference!

 

Edited by DougH
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14 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ya well it's not always easy and scripture says that we should search our heart to make sure of that, on an ongoing basis:

2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"

2 Peter 1:10-11 - "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Galatians 6:9 - "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Hebrews 3:14 - "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."

 

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted."

Numbers 31: But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle.  And Moses said to them: 'Have you kept all the women alive?  Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.'

1 Timothy 6: All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.

Colossians 3: Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything.

Exodus 21: And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.

Leviticus 19: Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

The above is posted simply to demonstrate that you can find justification and precedent for any behavior at all in the Bible.  People can (and have) used the Bible to justify a whole slew of atrocities.

That's why it's not the best guide for moral behavior.  Morality (fortunately) changes over time, and almost no one today would try to justify selling girls into slavery, killing everyone from a defeated city except for the virgins, or condemning someone who wears a cotton/polyester blend to church.  Those parts of the Bible speak to a different era.

A great many people find the good parts of the Bible - the parts that agree with their own innate morality - and heed them.  And that's great, because it's based on their innate morality, not a document that endorses things like slavery and killing the right sort of people.  If you go in with that view, and an understanding that you're going to discard the obviously evil stuff, then you can get a lot of good out of it, like the passages you quote above.

But any such use of the bible must come after someone has developed their own morality; use of the Bible to BASE one's morality on can lead to everything from the Crusades to the Inquisition to the Holocaust to the Atlantic slave trade to the KKK.  And even today, it is used to justify conversion therapy, family separations and protests at veteran funerals by the Westboro Baptists.  And, of course, attacks on people like Brittney Griner, Pete Buttigieg and Katie Hill.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, DougH said:

Many Christians, Muslims, and other religious types judge and spread hate because of peoples sexuality. 

Here is the math on that...

Hate, casting judgement, holding prejudices is a willful reprehensible choice, it is immoral.

Owning your own sexuality is not.  

So if you are a religious type who willfully acts in terrible ways to other people simply because they are being their own true selves then I will judge and hate you for being an overall shitty human being. I don't hate people for being religious, I hate certain people for their actions. Big difference!

 

Hi Doug,

Well put.  I totally agree.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited by JerryBaumchen

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7 hours ago, kallend said:

Why are so many "Christians" so preoccupied with what other people do with their sex organs?  It really is none of their business.

Quoting a bad translation of the views of a neolithic tribe some 2,000 years ago is not justification.

Hi John,

Re:  It really is none of their business. *

I bet they make this their business:  Bisexuals are the ‘invisible majority’ in LGBTQ America | The Hill

Jerry Baumchen

* I could not agree more.

 

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8 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Sigh....this was about Brittney Griner, why do we always end up on religion?

 

Edit, i know why. Because after thread was nearly dead Ron tossed a smoke grenade into the room and we all put on our gas masks and took up the fight. Looking back I can see that Ron does not believe she is female, and yet feels she is a homosexual sinner because she is married to a woman. That is the twisted world view some people can hold.  

Oh, I thought it was because the 'thread derailer in chief' popped up and did his usual trolling.

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20 hours ago, jakee said:
On 3/1/2023 at 8:51 PM, Coreece said:

I think the many people single out homosexuality because it's like the one of maybe a few sins that they don't commit, if not the only sin.  So it might give some a sense of self righteousness. But I think the main reason is that people are trying to say that it's not sin - and by doing so could prevent others from truly experiencing the power and love of God in their life and in the next. And I think there are many out there that want such a relationship.  So let it be.

So not only is the Christian concept of sin not necessarily concerned with what is actually moral or good, the many Christians who argue against homosexuality absolutely are not concerned with what is moral or good, they've just singled out gay people as a group they can victimise to feel better about their own sinful lives that are actually damaging to other people?

Well it's probably not as absolute as you're trying to say there, YMMV depending on the sect and your personal experience with sin including their own homosexual experiences and/or child molestation which is often confused with homosexuality.

Another major factor is parents trying to shield their children from these influences.  And I posted stats in another thread showing how even a majority of Democrats objected to Disney intentionally incorporating oversexualized or sexually suggestive content into children's entertainment.

And it's not just Christians, it's people from a wide range of religions along with irreligious/atheistic individuals alike, including prominent figures in both conservative and liberal media.

Even a transgendered clinical psychologist that has helped hundreds of teens transition stated in L.A Times that some children identifying as trans are falling under the influence of their peers and social media, and that some clinicians are failing to subject minors to rigorous mental health evaluations before recommending hormones or surgeries.

Excellent summation on current trends and how many people feel about these issues on all sides:

 

20 hours ago, jakee said:

I didn't think you were going to be so up front about it, to be honest. So why are you defending Ron if you think that's what he's doing?

You've done this several times now already, stop putting words in my mouth.  I didn't say that's what I think Ron is doing.  I was thinking more of the Westboro Baptist types that Bill even brought up wrt to the self righteous aspect of 'gay bashing.'  And interestingly enough, Ron is like the only person here that actually physically went out there to stand up against Westboro and shield families from their hate speech PGR.  What have you done?

Additionally, many here have commended Ron for his ability to 'turn the other cheek' and take the punches without striking back, and I admire that since it's something I've struggled with throughout most of my adult life.

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1 hour ago, Coreece said:

Even a transgendered clinical psychologist that has helped hundreds of teens transition stated in L.A Times that some children identifying as trans are falling under the influence of their peers and social media, and that some clinicians are failing to subject minors to rigorous mental health evaluations before recommending hormones or surgeries.

This can happen. I guess the issue is whether it's better to sacrifice children because of too fast a reaction, or too slow a reaction? Because either way, some children are going to be hurt. Kind of like seat belts -- there are, in fact, people who are hurt because of seat belts, but we accept that because of the greater good.

It's why those decisions (just like whether to get plastic surgery) are generally left up to the parents. There isn't nearly as much outcry about a family whose daughter or son has a nose job at 14, is there? And yes, it does happen.

Wendy P.

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2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Well it's probably not as absolute as you're trying to say there, YMMV depending on the sect and your personal experience with sin including their own homosexual experiences and/or child molestation which is often confused with homosexuality.

I used your exact language. You said ‘the many people do XYZ’ so I said ‘the many people do ZYX’. If you think that means I’m being absolutist then you’ll have to explain why you weren’t. 
 

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Another major factor is parents trying to shield their children from these influences.  And I posted stats in another thread showing how even a majority of Democrats objected to Disney intentionally incorporating oversexualized or sexually suggestive content into children's entertainment.

Another factor in what? What does that have to do with anything we’ve been talking about? What are you saying - that when Christians claim to be taking their anti-gay stance from the bible they’re actually just mad at Disney? I don’t get it.

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

You've done this several times now already, stop putting words in my mouth.  I didn't say that's what I think Ron is doing. 

Then what do you think he’s doing, because he’s clearly not simply following the bible. Again, going back to that biblical paragraph you posted, we know that Ron approves of Trump because he’s a greedy swindler, so it’s absurd to suggest he’s against homosexuality just because the same bible passage says so. 

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It is beyond me why anyone would take the cherry picked words from a flawed translation describing the prejudices of a band of neolithic goat herders some 2000+ years ago as a guide to moral rectitude in the 21st Century that they wish to impose on everyone else..

 

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