Dropzones closing down

[jakebaustin 9]

heard about a few DZs that have closed sometime in the last year or so. DZ in Germany, kamloops, Truckee, skydive temple, skydive Sacramento. Was wondering if anyone knows of any other DZs closing. Also curious, how is business at your DZ? Staying busy? 

 

[anomie168 16]

We (Parachute School Of Toronto) had a landlord issue (new owners are motherfuckers) and had to relocate.  We are still looking for a new home - so not closed, but temporarily not operating.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

15 minutes ago, anomie168 said:

We (Parachute School Of Toronto) had a landlord issue (new owners are motherfuckers) and had to relocate.  We are still looking for a new home - so not closed, but temporarily not operating.

What sort of motherfucker issues were unacceptable? Impossible rent increases, hours of operation limitations? Is your information first hand?

[riggerrob 558]

Urban sprawl, DZOs retiring, NIMBY, COVID-19 all conspire to force DZZs to close.

Skydive Kamloops originally landed at Scheidam Flats (circa 1980s) a few miles from Kamloops Municipal Airport. For a good 50 years, every May long weekend (aka. Victoria Day, the last weekend in the month) Kamloops Skydivers hosted thier annual May Meet which was the traditional season opener. KS often flew in big-name coaches, load-organizers and big airplanes (Cessna 208 Caravan, DHC-6 Twin Otter, Fokker F-27 Friendship, etc.).

Then they rented a house on the airport and landed on the airport for many years (since 2000 and probably earlier).

However, in recent years, urban sprawl has closed many alternate landing areas around the airport. There was also a problem with a junior jumper getting lost and landign too close to a Boeing 737 that was taxiing for take-off. Any delay to a scheduled flight costs hundreds of dollars in jet fuel.

All those factors combined to force the Kamloops Airport to ban skydivers from landing on the airport. Lacking a convenient LZ near the city, Kamloops skydivers shut down.

Edited November 10, 2022 by riggerrob

[riggerrob 558]

Skydive Kamloops originally landed at Scadam (sp?) Flats (circa 1980s) a few miles from Kamloops Municipal Airport.

Then they rented a house on the airport and landed on the airport for many years (since 2000 and probably earlier).

However, in recent years, urban sprawl has closed many alternate landing areas around the airport. There was also a problem with a junior jumper getting lost and landign too close to a Boeing 737 that was taxiing for take-off. Any delay to a scheduled flight costs hundreds of dollars in jet fuel.

All those factors combined to force the Kamloops Airport to ban skydivers from landing on the airport. Lacking a convenient LZ near the city, Kamloops skydivers shut down.

[riggerrob 558]

I watched Pitt Meadows shut down a few years ago. Troubles started with a jump-plane crash, followed by a feud with airport management, urban sprawl and NIMBY.

Troubles started with a King Air crash in 2008.

Since the King Air was the first (circa 2002) turbine airplane based at Pitt Meadows, the DZ had to buy its own Jet A fuel truck. A few years later (circa 2010) the airport bought its own Jet A fuel truck and tried to convince the DZO to buy fuel from them at their rates. The DZO refused.

Stop to consider for a moment that small airports' only sources of revenue are fuel sales and tie-down rental. 

When Pacific Independent Group of skydivers first started jumping near Pitt Meadows (circa 1980), they could not even get permission on land on the airport and instead had to land on farms just to the North of Pitt Meadows Class C airspace. Pitt Meadows is overlaid with Class B airspace as part of standard airliner arrivals at Vancouver International Airport ... the second or third busiest airport in Canada. Eventually, a pushy DZO convinced Transport Canada air traffic controllers that they were safer to land on the airport, near the VOR beacon.

Urban sprawl and NIMBY started by limiting skydivers from loud partying in the evenings. We have seen this problem at many other small airports where people bought farms and retired to the quiet countryside, then got annoyed at skydivers partying loud, or loud airplanes, etc.

Urban sprawl also saw hundreds of houses built down on the river bottoms near Pitt Meadows Airport. This never made sense from the perspective of climate change or annual spring flooding, but real estate agents eventually convinced Pitt Meadows city council to grant building permits on a flood plain. I have seen spring flood waters rise to within a few feet of the tops of the dykes surroudning Pitt Meadows Airport. Incidentally, PMA is almost at sea level adjacent to the Fraser River.

The Agricultural Land Reserve designated PMA as agricultural or aviation ONLY. This did not stop real estate developers from filing innumerable applications for building permits or land-exchanges.

Finally, the nature of PMA changed over the years. When I arrived in 1999, PMA was a sleepy gentlemens' flying club sponsored by the city. New PMA management decided to convert the airport into an industrial park similar to Arlington, Washington. Over the years, they buit suburbs and an industrial park closer and closer to PMA. The impending pilot shortage also saw the construction of more flyign schools .. primarily to provide airline pilots for the asian market.

After the first DZO left in a snit over fuel prices, a couple of other consortiums kept the DZ going for a few more years, but the last straw was an ATC decision to ban parachuting anytime runway 18/36. Since winds rarely blew from the north this was not an issue in earlier days, but the year that the ban was introduced, winds blew from the north for an unusually large number of days and skydivers often sat on the ground for 3 weeks straight.

I have seen similar politics shut down another half-dozen small airports in other provinces and other countries.

[gowlerk 1,901]

26 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

A few years later (circa 2010) the airport bought its own Jet A fuel truck and tried to convince the DZO to buy fuel from them at their rates. The DZO refused.

Stop to consider for a moment that small airports' only sources of revenue are fuel sales and tie-down rental. 

This is the main reason we buy all our fuel from the airport operated cardlock pumps. That and the fact that fuel contamination and dealing with shrinkage is almost completely eliminated. A few dollars more for fuel is a small issue in the bigger scheme of things.

[chuckakers 369]

11 hours ago, jakebaustin said:

heard about a few DZs that have closed sometime in the last year or so....skydive temple....

 

Skydive Temple did not close. They ceased operations in Salado and moved 30 minutes away to Harker Heights with plans to rebrand as Skydive Skylark. They are open and operating - confirmed minutes ago.

[nwt 131]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

This is the main reason we buy all our fuel from the airport operated cardlock pumps. That and the fact that fuel contamination and dealing with shrinkage is almost completely eliminated. A few dollars more for fuel is a small issue in the bigger scheme of things.

Fuel is a major expense and the price can vary wildly between airports. I don't think you can judge someone for their purchase decisions without knowing details.

[wmw999 2,114]

I think that as the world gets more crowded, both land-wise and people-wise, people are going to either need to bend over backwards more or just accept that whoever has more power (e.g. landlord over tenant) will win. This is going to be worst in countries that have sprawling suburban housing rather than more urban vertical housing

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,901]

8 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I think that as the world gets more crowded, both land-wise and people-wise, people are going to either need to bend over backwards more or just accept that whoever has more power (e.g. landlord over tenant) will win. This is going to be worst in countries that have sprawling suburban housing rather than more urban vertical housing

Wendy P. 

Skydivers would like the DZ to be near the city that they live in. But a 2 hour drive is more likely to be where there is enough cheap land and an under used airfield available. Skydiving uses a lot of resources.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

I think that as the world gets more crowded, both land-wise and people-wise, people are going to either need to bend over backwards more or just accept that whoever has more power (e.g. landlord over tenant) will win. This is going to be worst in countries that have sprawling suburban housing rather than more urban vertical housing

Wendy P. 

Ya, sure, but skydiving and USPA is in the business of creating mom and pop stores next to big box stores. DZ's are not incompetent marketeers, as demonstrated by the sometimes heroes who arrive on seen to show us how it's done and then disappear. The issue is we do not have an unlimited market available. Start up DZ's, invariably with USPA assistance, pop up near established and growing DZ's. They undercut, discount etc., all good I guess, but that makes price increases and the consequent ability to pay staff more money difficult or impossible. So DZ's close. Those economic conditions also make it difficult to make expansion decisions based on a hoped for upjumper increase very difficult. It's vastly easier to make those decisions based on customers that reserve in advance with a deposit. In the world of shifting feuds and alliances that is skydiving taking on a million or two in debt to support our upjumper friends and hoping for the needed volume is a real risk. And yes, I do hold USPA to account for that reality.

[3331 107]

Skydive DelMarVa in Laurel Delaware closed after decades, issues with the Airport owner, don’t know the details.  They moved to Ridgely Maryland where the famous ‘Pelican Skydiver’ used to be.  They are now ‘Skydive Chesapeake’ and in a much better arrangement.  The only activity on the airport is Skydiving.   

[anomie168 16]

On 11/10/2022 at 8:50 AM, JoeWeber said:

What sort of motherfucker issues were unacceptable? Impossible rent increases, hours of operation limitations? Is your information first hand?

My information is first hand.  I have to be careful what I say here because things became litigious and I don't want to end up in litigation again.  The new owners had intentions for the airport that were not conducive to it operating as an airport, again, being careful what I say.  They had moved to evict with an extra-legal notice and we resisted.  They then attempted to create cause for eviction, which they were unable to do.  They then began operating a bulldozer in the landing area and doing other things to create safety issues.  The end result was an agreement for us to leave, the terms of which I am unable to discuss.

Editing to add:  We had a very favourable lease that had a couple years left on it and an option for renewal for 5 more years at the same rent and the option to renew was solely at the discretion of our DZO.  The previous airport owners were very supportive of us.

Edited November 11, 2022 by anomie168

[JoeWeber 2,294]

17 minutes ago, anomie168 said:

My information is first hand.  I have to be careful what I say here because things became litigious and I don't want to end up in litigation again.  The new owners had intentions for the airport that were not conducive to it operating as an airport, again, being careful what I say.  They had moved to evict with an extra-legal notice and we resisted.  They then attempted to create cause for eviction, which they were unable to do.  They then began operating a bulldozer in the landing area and doing other things to create safety issues.  The end result was an agreement for us to leave, the terms of which I am unable to discuss.

Editing to add:  We had a very favourable lease that had a couple years left on it and an option for renewal for 5 more years at the same rent and the option to renew was solely at the discretion of our DZO.  The previous airport owners were very supportive of us.

Property owners doing with their investments as they see fit does not make them motherfuckers. When it was for sale you should have made the buy. If you didn’t want the burdens or couldn’t find the money such is life.

[anomie168 16]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Property owners doing with their investments as they see fit does not make them motherfuckers. When it was for sale you should have made the buy. If you didn’t want the burdens or couldn’t find the money such is life.

Motherfuckers are people  who use money and lawyers to violate laws and legal documents.  This was not a case of new owners operating within the law and their rights.  I'm honestly sick and tired of seeing people use money and connections to act as if they are above the law.  Things may be different down south, but I still like to think that we are a nation of laws.

Edited November 11, 2022 by anomie168

[nwt 131]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Property owners doing with their investments as they see fit does not make them motherfuckers. When it was for sale you should have made the buy. If you didn’t want the burdens or couldn’t find the money such is life.

Property owners not honoring the lease are motherfuckers.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

14 minutes ago, nwt said:

Property owners not honoring the lease are motherfuckers.

Absolutely, but I haven't seen the lease, have you?

[nwt 131]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Absolutely, but I haven't seen the lease, have you?

What do you need to see? Do you mean to suggest that if the landowners were behaving in an obviously malicious way but might *technically* be within the lease that they are not motherfuckers? I would disagree.

[anomie168 16]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Absolutely, but I haven't seen the lease, have you?

Yes, back to your question about first hand knowledge.  Why would I be posting a lease in the forum ?  Why do you think you would see the lease ?  This is a bit silly.

Edited November 11, 2022 by anomie168

[riggerrob 558]

20 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Skydivers would like the DZ to be near the city that they live in. But a 2 hour drive is more likely to be where there is enough cheap land and an under used airfield available. Skydiving uses a lot of resources.

Yes. 

Most of the DZs I have enjoyed were a 90 minute drive from the center of a major city: Montreal, Halifax, Chicago, New York, etc.

Only Moncton and Kamloops were a mere 10 minute drive from downtown.

One disadvantage of Pitt Meadows being only a 60 minute drive from downtown was that skydivers did all their errants on a Saturday morning, did a few skydives, then drove home for the evening. Few stuck around to drink beer and socialize after sunset.

Part of the reason is the need to jump outside of Class B airspace (read "B" as "big airport serving a big city") because air traffic controllers don't like bungling amateur skydivers clogging up their smooth flow of dozens of airliners per hour. One skydiver opening high can mess up their traffic flow for ... well it seems like forever ... for ATC.

Yes, we had a few ATC who were also regular recreational skydivers at Pitt Meadows.

Edited November 11, 2022 by riggerrob
add a paragraph

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, anomie168 said:

Yes, back to your question about first hand knowledge.  Why would I be posting a lease in the forum ?  Why do you think you would see the lease ?  This is a bit silly.

You wouldn't. An observation that we hadn't seen the lease wasn't a request. The thing is that I'm a prisoner of what I know. In addition to owning a private airport I've also done a few subdivisions and a few partitions. I also lease farmland and water rights. So I know intimately that the devil is always in the details and that lessee's often have more emotional standing than legal standing. Maybe your new owner is a motherfucker who is forcing you off the airport with his check book. But it's also possible that your lease wasn't solid and that is just the sort thing that a buyer might see as an advantage. 

[nwt 131]

15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe your new owner is a motherfucker who is forcing you off the airport with his check book. But it's also possible that your lease wasn't solid and that is just the sort thing that a buyer might see as an advantage. 

Sorry but what's the difference between these two things?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, nwt said:

Sorry but what's the difference between these two things?

Maybe they had a good lease but no money to hire lawyers to perfect their position. That would make the new owners motherfuckers. Maybe the lease was an at will situation and maybe giving tacit or temporary occupancy could have developed into an inability to make them leave later when they didn’t want to go. Maybe the lease had defects the new owners didn’t want to adopt. There are a lot of things, none of which I know.

[nwt 131]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe the lease was an at will situation

Anomie has stated pretty clearly this isn't the case

26 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe the lease had defects the new owners didn’t want to adopt.

This isn't a choice the new owners are entitled to make--the lease comes with the property.

27 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

There are a lot of things, none of which I know.

What I'm trying to get at is simple: Taking advantage of imperfections not contemplated by either side previously, for the sole purpose of undermining the spirit of the lease, makes you a motherfucker. Agree or disagree?