Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[JoeWeber 2,520]

Except as a way to erode democracy. The monotheistic religious pine for their King; forms of government designed by people are simple vehicles not the end game. And that’s why we are already screwed.

[Phil1111 1,049]

1. They can use the tax free status of the religion to fund raise and organize

2. They are already organized and use the top down hierarchy to drive votes and ideas.

3. They use the righteousness of their position to demonize democracy.

4. They have a voting turnout rate of 89%(evangelical Christians) v about 75% for democrats.

5. They cast aside values and integrity for political power. aka trump and the USSC.

6. They use the Sunday pulpit to demonize "socialism".

6. Democrats are just not prepared to compromise values like Christians are.Until they do they will lose.

[BIGUN 1,229]

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Except as a way to erode democracy. The monotheistic religious pine for their King; forms of government designed by people are simple vehicles not the end game. And that’s why we are already screwed.

What's your solution?

[JoeWeber 2,520]

52 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

What's your solution?

For me the solution was atheism and the consequent freedom to choose based upon provable facts. Unfortunately for democracy mine is the minority view in America.

I suspect the majority are about to receive the government they believe they want. Ironically the result will make me a little more free: free to not care as much or at all. As a white male I’ll be in the protected class. I’ll lose no agency, equality or opportunity.

As for all of the groups that will be gifted even more eroded circumstances, well they must have had damn good reasons for not voting or voting as they chose. 

[Phil1111 1,049]

Just as MAGA republicans use Christians to pursue a political agenda. For which their leadership has happily wedded in an unholy alliance. Putin has co-opted the Russian Orthodox Church in an almost exact fashion.

With the church endorsing convicted criminals and murders. Being set free from prisons in order to go to the front.

[Phil1111 1,049]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

For me the solution was atheism and the consequent freedom to choose based upon provable facts. Unfortunately for democracy mine is the minority view in America.

I suspect the majority are about to receive the government they believe they want. Ironically the result will make me a little more free: free to not care as much or at all. As a white male I’ll be in the protected class. I’ll lose no agency, equality or opportunity....

So young! So naive. More than 3/4 of Republican evangelicals want US declared a Christian nation

If you think the USSC and the much touted constitution is ready to protect you. I'd point out that the USSC is:: The Supreme Court is leading a Christian conservative revolution

Perhaps Ron can send you a free bible so you can brush up on current morals. ....er....Oh yeah thats been superseded by trump's latest speeches.

[kallend 1,798]

"Christians don’t believe in Democracy"

 

Well, duh, why would they?  They don't get to choose their popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, pastors, vicars. . .   so why would government be any different?

[JoeWeber 2,520]

46 minutes ago, kallend said:

"Christians don’t believe in Democracy"

 

Well, duh, why would they?  They don't get to choose their popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, pastors, vicars. . .   so why would government be any different?

I think it’s just wonderful that Catholics don’t see that their church is organized just like the Chinese communist party.

[BIGUN 1,229]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I think it’s just wonderful that Catholics don’t see that their church is organized just like the Chinese communist party.

The Communist Chinese Party sees ANY organized religion as a threat to communism and THEY tell the religions who can operate, where and when. And four European countries tax the church. Ya know, kinda like the Democrats want.

BAM!!  

[JoeWeber 2,520]

5 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The Communist Chinese Party sees ANY organized religion as a threat to communism and THEY tell the religions who can operate, where and when. And four European countries tax the church. Ya know, kinda like the Democrats want.

BAM!!  

But the Catholics are truly organized like the communists, that’s reality. Also, it might be a rude awakening when the hoped for American theocracy turns out to be an anti religion autocracy. Unexpected consequences and all.

[BIGUN 1,229]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

But the Catholics are truly organized like the communists

You got it backwards. The communists organized like the Catholics. 

[JoeWeber 2,520]

12 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You got it backwards. The communists organized like the Catholics. 

Backwards is my speciality. I do hope my predictions are also ass backwards. If so I'll concede defeat with pleasure. In the meantime I'll continue prepping the Peoples Republic of Joe for splash next week. 

[mbohu 77]

Well, that makes sense, from their perspective, though. If you believe there is an absolute Good and an absolute Evil, that these two are at war with each other and that the absolute Good is completely represented by a personal God, and the absolute Evil by his opponent, who tries to take over people's minds:

Well, then you cannot possibly be for democracy, because it does not matter to you what a majority of people want. All that matters is that the will of God wins out in every way and on every issue. Not only must you think this is the best outcome for yourself (because it's the God you believe in) but you believe it is the best outcome for everyone, including those who are "misled" by God's opponent.

There is no way around this problem. Of course, one can hope to convince everyone, or a majority, to drop this belief, and become an atheist or at least an agnostic, but it does not seem likely at all that this will happen in the near future.

So, how do we proceed from here?

[billvon 2,676]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:56 PM, JoeWeber said:

Christians don't believe in Democracy

Most of the US ones do, in my experience.

[Phil1111 1,049]

25 minutes ago, billvon said:

Most of the US ones do, in my experience.

In order to practice democracy you must allow even your enemies to assume power. You must not hinder the rights of your enemies to have voteing power equal to your own. Even when we believe that they are not being just. The process of democracy must be absolute.

Abraham Lincoln stated that those in power must have—“malice toward none” and “charity for all.”

Come Tuesday you may be right in your own experience. But wrong in national opinion.

 

[billvon 2,676]

34 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Come Tuesday you may be right in your own experience. But wrong in national opinion.

How does a republican win prove that Christians don't believe in democracy?

[Phil1111 1,049]

25 minutes ago, billvon said:

How does a republican win prove that Christians don't believe in democracy?

Republicans enjoy twenty percent more support among Christians than do democrats.

53% of republicans among the 569 republicans in midterm elections deny Biden's win. in addition 70% of republicans "have doubts' about Biden's win.

Election dental(of Biden's victory) is prima facie anti-democratic.

Christian nationalism is anti-democratic by definition.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[JoeWeber 2,520]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Most of the US ones do, in my experience.

Sure, in the way that most folks believe in garbage service: a nicety not a necessity.

[BIGUN 1,229]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

in garbage service: a nicety not a necessity.

Live in NYC during a Sanitation Workers strike - you'll soon see what a necessity it is. 

 

[kallend 1,798]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

Most of the US ones do, in my experience.

That's because most of them aren't capable of critical thinking.

[wmw999 2,291]

There are plenty of Christians who believe in democracy, and who even believe the 2020 election was fair and well run. It’s just that there are noisy ones who don’t, and they’re getting the attention. It’s just as wrong to say all Christians are election deniers as it is to say Catholics aren’t christians. No one group owns the word 

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 1,049]

48 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

There are plenty of Christians who believe in democracy, and who even believe the 2020 election was fair and well run. It’s just that there are noisy ones who don’t, and they’re getting the attention. It’s just as wrong to say all Christians are election deniers as it is to say Catholics aren’t christians. No one group owns the word 

Wendy P. 

Plenty is not a significant statistical majority.The organized active voteing group. Poll after poll has shown that Christians turn out for elections. That they have become very politically active in the last two decades in the US. That they have an agenda associated with that political activism.

The recent stacking of the USSC and the abortion ruling are almost solely the result of Christian activists. I'll leave the debate about anti-democratic aspects of those two events to others.

Usually you're right on. Not on this one.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[billvon 2,676]

12 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Republicans enjoy twenty percent more support among Christians than do democrats.

But that's like saying most criminals are men, therefore it is proven that all men are criminals.

[billvon 2,676]

7 hours ago, kallend said:

That's because most of them aren't capable of critical thinking.

Most of them are quite capable of critical thinking in my experience, and there is not much of a correlation between religious belief and ability to think critically.  For examples, take Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, Leonhard Euler, Thomas Bayes, Joseph Priestly, Michael Faraday, Charles Babbage, James Maxwell, Gregor Mendel, Lewis Carroll, George Stokes, Lord Kelvin, Wilhelm Röntgen, Guglielmo Marconi, George Washington Carver, Igor Sikorsky, Werner Heisenberg, Wernher von Braun and Kurt Gödel.  Several Nobel prizes in there - and I bet you even teach material many of those people discovered or formalized.

[Phil1111 1,049]

45 minutes ago, billvon said:

But that's like saying most criminals are men, therefore it is proven that all men are criminals.

Of course it doesn't. You're being silly. Just as gun owners have formed a voting block to support their goals. Christians have formed a voteing block for political purpose. I never said that all Christians are GOP fascists. But they themselves have recognized political power and become political animals to pursue religious objectives.

Including:

-Stacking the USSC with christian conservatives. With abortion rights out the door as a result.Now driving a religious lobbying objective for more radical results.

-The GOP cancelled the Johnson Amendment. "Lyndon B. Johnson cemented into law is the “Johnson Amendment,” a provision of the U.S. tax code that prohibits religious organizations and many nonprofits from endorsing or opposing political candidates."

-The Supreme Court ruled in 1962 that it’s unconstitutional for a teacher to lead a class in prayer at a public school. Now the USSC has tossed that out the door.

-99% of GOP concresscritters identify as christian. It shows.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Phil1111