Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[wmw999 2,116]

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Christians have formed a voteing block for political purpose. I never said that all Christians are GOP fascists. But they themselves have recognized political power and become political animals to pursue religious objectives.

You’re playing right into their hands by saying Christians are all like that. Maybe a significant percent of evangelicals, but they neither define nor own Christianity. Much as they might like to  

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,384]

37 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Of course it doesn't. You're being silly.

We saw a real world example of this 20 years ago, when everyone just knew that Muslims were terrorists.  Because some were.  That wasn't silly - that led to real problems for millions of Muslims.

Don't do the same thing again.

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Christians have formed a voteing block for political purpose. 

They sure have.  So have liberals, and women, and schoolteachers.

[Phil1111 908]

46 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

You’re playing right into their hands by saying Christians are all like that. Maybe a significant percent of evangelicals, but they neither define nor own Christianity. Much as they might like to  

Wendy P. 

I have never said that they are "all like that". I objected and refuted Bill's suggestion when:  " I never said that all Christians are GOP fascists. But they themselves have recognized political power and become political animals to pursue religious objectives." The US constitution separating religion and government. The Johnson Amendment and the tax freedom that religions are privileged with. Are there for a reason. To separate religion from politics associated with the state.

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

We saw a real world example of this 20 years ago, when everyone just knew that Muslims were terrorists.  Because some were.  That wasn't silly - that led to real problems for millions of Muslims.

Don't do the same thing again.

They sure have.  So have liberals, and women, and schoolteachers.

If Muslims used tax freedom status. Used the mosques to fund raise, direct political actions to seize control of government and the courts. To gain control of school curriculums, voting and lobbying.

All for a purpose to inhibit the freedom, or impose a religious advantage to the followers of Allah using the power or authority of the state. Upon the non believing public. I would say the same about them.

Both of you fail to recognize the danger of Christian nationalism and religious affiliation with governance. This is how religious nationalism goes wrong.

Buddhists Go to Battle: When Nationalism Overrides Pacifism

No this isn't 20 years ago. Just as the Russian Orthodox church(Christian) is working for Putin today to kill Ukrainians.

 

[billvon 2,384]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

If Muslims used tax freedom status. Used the mosques to fund raise, direct political actions to seize control of government and the courts. To gain control of school curriculums, voting and lobbying.

You are missing the point.

Muslims are terrorists.  This can be proven by listing all the terrorism that they engage in throughout the world.  And that is as true, and just as supportable, as the statement that Christians don't believe in democracy - which again you proved by listing all the anti-democratic things they've done.

If you think "that's absurd!" to one but think "yeah that's right" to the second - you have identified a disconnect in your thinking.

[Phil1111 908]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

You are missing the point.

Muslims are terrorists.  This can be proven by listing all the terrorism that they engage in throughout the world.  And that is as true, and just as supportable, as the statement that Christians don't believe in democracy - which again you proved by listing all the anti-democratic things they've done.

If you think "that's absurd!" to one but think "yeah that's right" to the second - you have identified a disconnect in your thinking.

To argue that Muslim racism should be used in debate with specific examples of anti-democratic actions of US Christians. Is a prime example of false equivalency.

"Religious freedom expert Amanda Tyler, discusses the latest court cases and trends in religious freedom"

Christian Nationalism Is ‘Single Biggest Threat’ to America’s Religious Freedom The idea that the fleshing out of anti-democratic Christian actions. Can't occur because it brands everyone the same. Is like saying Nazi fascism can't be addressed because it brands every German as a Nazi.

I am talking about the christians that are infiltrating political power in the US. Using the pulpit, dark money, anti LGBT, the ReAwaken America Tour together with the GOP to do so. The same ones funding anti LGBT events and actions in Europe.

Below from "Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty," which I endorse.

• "People of all faiths and none have the right and responsibility to engage constructively in the public square.
• One’s religious affiliation, or lack thereof, should be irrelevant to one’s standing in the civic community.
• Government should not prefer one religion over another or religion over nonreligion.
• Religious instruction is best left to our houses of worship and other religious institutions.

These are among the core values that are at the center of the initiative and part of a statement that anyone who identifies as a Christian is invited to sign."

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

You are missing the point.

Muslims are terrorists.  This can be proven by listing all the terrorism that they engage in throughout the world.  And that is as true, and just as supportable, as the statement that Christians don't believe in democracy - which again you proved by listing all the anti-democratic things they've done.

If you think "that's absurd!" to one but think "yeah that's right" to the second - you have identified a disconnect in your thinking.

As the original disconnected thinker, I made clear that I was giving the evil eye to all of the monotheistic religious. Locally, our monotheistic religious tend to be Christians and if you think Mike Pence or some of the newly let loose to speak their truths Pastors are any indication the now freely espoused end game is Christianity first and mans poorly contrived system of government second.

[billvon 2,384]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

To argue that Muslim racism

Islam is a religion, not a race.  Same with Christianity.

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Religious freedom expert Amanda Tyler

Here's an even more expert opinion, from terrorism expert Seung-Whan Choi, PhD of the University of Illinois:

We find that (1) countries with greater Muslim populations are likely to experience more suicide attacks, (2) countries with greater Sunni Muslim populations are likely to encounter more suicide attacks, and (3) countries with greater Hanafi Muslim populations, in contrast to other Sunni legal schools, face the greatest risk of experiencing suicide attacks. The overall analysis suggests that Islam is positively associated with suicide attacks.

https://academic.oup.com/isagsq/article/2/1/ksab046/6521891

So we are back to parity.  Using your own logic, Muslims don't believe in peace, and are terrorists.

[billvon 2,384]

39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

As the original disconnected thinker, I made clear that I was giving the evil eye to all of the monotheistic religious.

I'm far more open minded, and look skeptically at polytheistic religions as well.  Mainly because all those sons of Zeus are hard to remember.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

36 minutes ago, billvon said:

I'm far more open minded, and look skeptically at polytheistic religions as well.  Mainly because all those sons of Zeus are hard to remember.

Good plan. I was being too parochial as usual. I'm thinking the op's proposition may have struck a chord. Not to proselytize but I'm still thinking they were spot on.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

20 hours ago, billvon said:

How does a republican win prove that Christians don't believe in democracy?

By looking at the results. If Christians vote Republican then it is arguable that they are voting against Democracy and in favor of short term economic gain. If you believe the second coming is over due how could you believe or vote otherwise? Same as if women don't overwhelmingly vote democrat then it's arguable that they don't care about agency or equality. Same as if young voters don't vote it's arguable that they don't give a shit about the things not on their smart phones. It will never be more obvious, in our lifetimes, then now. Tomorrow we'll learn if faith and self interest is more important than a functional democracy. Good luck to all.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

I'm far more open minded, and look skeptically at polytheistic religions as well.  Mainly because all those sons of Zeus are hard to remember.

There's a pretty good argument that Catholicism is polytheistic Christianity.

[Phil1111 908]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Islam is a religion, not a race.  Same with Christianity.

Here's an even more expert opinion, from terrorism expert Seung-Whan Choi, PhD of the University of Illinois:

We find that (1) countries with greater Muslim populations are likely to experience more suicide attacks, (2) countries with greater Sunni Muslim populations are likely to encounter more suicide attacks, and (3) countries with greater Hanafi Muslim populations, in contrast to other Sunni legal schools, face the greatest risk of experiencing suicide attacks. The overall analysis suggests that Islam is positively associated with suicide attacks.

https://academic.oup.com/isagsq/article/2/1/ksab046/6521891

So we are back to parity.  Using your own logic, Muslims don't believe in peace, and are terrorists.

Muslims are not trying to use religious action, political action, pecuniary actions, to achieve power. In any western country.. Yet you insist upon throwing back a disingenuous argument that the false equivalency is religious terror committed in other countries. Or at least I assume foreign countries.I frankly can't be bothered to research your examples. Because the equivalency is not the same.

I have not argued, or suggested, that Christians are using terror for religious political objectives. Yet it seems as if thats the sole example that you have.

I know you can do better. So I'll just put it down to agreeing to disagree. Then put this to rest.

 

[gowlerk 1,903]

59 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If Christians vote Republican then it is arguable that they are voting against Democracy and in favor of short term economic gain.

63% of the US population identifies as Christian. Clearly they do not all vote R. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

63% of the US population identifies as Christian. Clearly they do not all vote R. 

Let’s just see how many vote for democracy.

[billvon 2,384]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

By looking at the results. If Christians vote Republican then it is arguable that they are voting against Democracy

But again, you can say exactly the same thing about Muslims.  If Muslims commit terrorism, it is arguable that they hate peace and support violence.  And yes, it's the same argument.

[billvon 2,384]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

Muslims are not trying to use religious action, political action, pecuniary actions, to achieve power.

Given that they often appeal to Allah just before they blow themselves up - and given that terrorism is probably the #1 form of asymmetric warfare - they are indeed trying to achieve power.  Suicide bombers have political goals in mind.

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I have not argued, or suggested, that Christians are using terror for religious political objectives. 

And I didn't claim you did.  You have claimed that they are anti-democratic because some of them vote republican.  The equivalent argument is that Muslims are anti-peace because some of them are terrorists.

Again, if you accept one but not the other - you have identified a flaw in your thinking.  That's on you, not me.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

But again, you can say exactly the same thing about Muslims.  If Muslims commit terrorism, it is arguable that they hate peace and support violence.  And yes, it's the same argument.

Alright, if you like, and fine by me. I suppose, then, that all Hindus who drive EV's hate Brent. But neither emotion sets or initial actions are forms of government. On the other hand being thrilled that we have an autocratic USSC fully flush with the effects of Christian intention and being in full support of an insurrectionist former President or anyone else who will force a Christianity based view of school prayer, abortion bans, Christianity based school curriculum down everyones throats, and being happy to accept minority rule in America if more Jesus is everywhere, especially the public square, is the consequence strikes me as sort of undemocratic.

Edited November 8, 2022 by JoeWeber

[BIGUN 1,050]

I'm just curious. Does this tirade include Democrats that are Christians or just the R's?

[kallend 1,621]

19 hours ago, billvon said:

Most of them are quite capable of critical thinking in my experience, and there is not much of a correlation between religious belief and ability to think critically.  For examples, take Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton . . . .

That was then, this is now.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

15 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'm just curious. Does this tirade include Democrats that are Christians or just the R's?

Democrats, Independents, anyone who would honestly undermine any democratic institution or process in the furtherance of Christian values. To be clear, I am not saying it makes them any worse than the hypocritical rest of us; we all have our agendas. I am not saying that Christians are inherently evil or even bad, not at all. What I am claiming is that if democracy falters or fails in America Christianity will be a cause. What I am saying is that complete belief in a supreme being whose apocalyptic return is nigh and hoped, and is considered to be the highest authority in the cosmos, is at direct odds with the fundamental precepts of democracy.

[Phil1111 908]

13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Democrats, Independents, anyone who would honestly undermine any democratic institution or process in the furtherance of Religious values. To be clear, I am not saying it makes them any worse than the hypocritical rest of us; we all have our agendas. I am not saying that Religious fascists are inherently evil or even bad, not at all. What I am claiming is that if democracy falters or fails in America Religious fascists will be a cause. What I am saying is that complete belief in a supreme being whose apocalyptic return is nigh and hoped, and is considered to be the highest authority in the cosmos, is at direct odds with the fundamental precepts of democracy. When a religious subset impose those religious beliefs on the majority.

Corrected to reflect my position.

37 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'm just curious. Does this tirade include Democrats that are Christians or just the R's?

Since I doubt that you're touring America with Michael Flynn in his ReAwaken America Tour . Since you're not advocating civil war or arming for an "upcoming civil war".

Since you've come across as a responsible Christian who follows the beliefs of Jesus Christ. Just a hundreds of millions of Muslims follow the teachings of Allah. Yet do not try to use the state and good governance to impose those beliefs on others. IMO you're pro democratic. As are most followers of god(s) in America.

A religious subset of christians in America that seek "far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race[white(and religion)]"

I see on the weekend that DeSantis came out also claiming a akin to god. Just as trump has done on several occasions.

[gowlerk 1,903]

29 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

What I am saying is that complete belief in a supreme being whose apocalyptic return is nigh and hoped, and is considered to be the highest authority in the cosmos, is at direct odds with the fundamental precepts of democracy.

That would be correct. And that is the reason the First Amendment prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Of course if you stack the courts you can change the meaning of those words to gut it and let the favoured church take over.

[BIGUN 1,050]

26 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Since you've come across as a responsible Christian who follows the beliefs of Jesus Christ. Just a hundreds of millions of Muslims follow the teachings of Allah. Yet do not try to use the state and good governance to impose those beliefs on others. IMO you're pro democratic. As are most followers of god(s) in America.

Morning, Phil.

I am of Sicilian heritage and was raised in NYC, in the Roman Catholic church. It's a rule. As I began to get older, I began to question. Eventually, I fell into a Pantheistic perspective of the universe. Yet, I still have questions.

RE: Pro Democratic. Thank you. I "think" that comes from my time as a soldier, many foreign countries with varying forms of government. While some would chastise the US and it's form of government; there's a reason millions of immigrants flock to the US every year. 

As to the influence of Christianity in America - if we look at the trendline of Christianity in the US, it has gone from ~84% thirty years ago to less than half today. Some see that as an erosion and a threat on democracy; others a blessing. Those who see it as a threat and use it as a political tool aren't doing the US any favors and so in that; I agree with Joe. But, it really doesn't matter which party you're in - it should not be a part of the political platform. My belief is the divide began with Reagan. 

I'm not a fan of those who feel like they need to profess their Christianity from Mount High in the Republican party. Big believer in separation of church and state. I had a Sicilian aunt who was old-school Democrat and Roman Catholic her whole life. She had an amazing capacity to wear each hat separately. Church was church and politics wasn't.  

Edited November 8, 2022 by BIGUN

[JoeWeber 2,294]

22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I am of Sicilian heritage and was raised in NYC, in the Roman Catholic church.

So were Bernardo Provenzano and Luciano Leggio. Interesting........

[Phil1111 908]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

...As to the influence of Christianity in America - if we look at the trendline of Christianity in the US, it has gone from ~84% thirty years ago to less than half today. Some see that as an erosion and a threat on democracy; others a blessing. Those who see it as a threat and use it as a political tool aren't doing the US any favors and so in that; I agree with Joe. But, it really doesn't matter which party you're in - it should not be a part of the political platform. My belief is the divide began with Reagan....

... Church was church and politics wasn't.  

Concepts that I expect from real Christians. Those that understand how religious ideals can guide thinking, behavior and interactions with non believers.

 As I've stated before I think that religion is a net benefit for societies. I think that for many people the socialization associated with teaching charity, kindness towards others, etc. Is valuable.

Unfortunately false prophets infiltrate religions. IS, Buddhists in Myanmar, hardline evangelicals in America. America will swing away from this temporary religious pseudo-nationalism. But it will take time. The USSC pro-christian bent will take time to dissolve.