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Audibles during AFF

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>Drilling students to 'pull when they hear the audible' is a bad idea . . .

Then they won't do it and the benefit of adding a dytter is negligible. If they hear it a few times, and _learn_ they must pull by then - then they are learning bad habits.

Like I said before, I can see ways of integrating dytters into student programs that are not bad. But I also don't see how they'd help very significantly. Students _must_ learn altitude awareness with as few gadgets as possible, so any use of an audible has to be in a manner that does not replace some of their own altitude awareness. And given that, it's hard to see how it would benefit a student.

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Then they won't do it


This, of course depends on the emphasis during the ground school. They may not pull if they hear it in freefall during their first ever skydive, but they are certainly going to react when they hear the same sound they heard a few times right after opening while this time they are struggling to stop the planet spinning so fast...
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any use of an audible has to be in a manner that does not replace some of their own altitude awareness.


Therefore, they are taught to pull BEFORE they hear it. Upon / after graduation, the gadgets is taken away from them and it is up to them if they are willing to buy one for themselves. The benefit is in the feeling of 'security' that, if they get 'carried away' with new freefall stuff there's a good chance they are reminded of the ground coming up.
No different from the use that I, myself, make of the gadget.
(I have one. Do you have one too?)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Therefore, they are taught to pull BEFORE they hear it. Upon / after graduation, the gadgets is taken away from them and it is up to them if they are willing to buy one for themselves.



So they buy one and depend on it.

The #1 thing students must learn is altitude awareness. EVERYTHING else is second.

And lets be honest, its not that hard, we give them an altimeter and on the first jumps an Instructor. Why would they need a dyter?

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The benefit is in the feeling of 'security' that, if they get 'carried away' with new freefall stuff there's a good chance they are reminded of the ground coming up.



I do that by reminding them to pull then deploying them and then failing them.

Its a hard lesson to be learned, but the most important one to be learned. I can't see one benefit to them having an audible.

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No different from the use that I, myself, make of the gadget.



Can you jump without it? These people might not, and ALL devices fail.

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(I have one. Do you have one too?)



Yep, but I will not think a second about jumping without one....Will you jump without one?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So they buy one and depend on it.


I'm afraid you are misreading me. They always jump a couple of times without one. And if you are realy THAT concerned, give them one but remove the batteries beforehand....after the jump, tell them they made a skydive with a non-functional dytter and survived.

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we give them an altimeter and on the first jumps an Instructor. Why would they need a dyter?


Because altimeters nor instructors are infalible. Since, per your words altitude awareness is paramount, what is wrong with an extra device that does that and only that - making a skydiver aware of his altitude, in case he has forgotten?

That skydiver made his appointment through a cell phone, found the DZ on the internet and with his car-navigation sytem, had his first tandem filmed on video, pay's for his jumps electronically, jumps from GPS equipped airplanes and has an electronic AAD built into the rig.
"OMG - you'll become DEVICE DEPENDENT! Don't you know how dangerous that can be?" :S
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Can you jump without it? These people might not, and ALL devices fail.


If all devices fail, then the plane doesn't come from the ground. Problem solved. :)
The failure of an audible to produce a sound or the parachutist to hear that sound is NOT catastrophical.
Neither would the sound being to early be...
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I will not think a second about jumping without one....Will you jump without one?


Same here of course....

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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They always jump a couple of times without one. And if you are realy THAT concerned, give them one but remove the batteries beforehand....after the jump, tell them they made a skydive with a non-functional dytter and survived.



Why not just teach them without it? Then later you can hand them one and say, "These are pretty cool, you don't need it, but they are nice."

Fact is they don't need them, and it can and will distract people from the major lesson of altitude awareness.

I have seen students once they know about an AAD/RSL relax about emergency procedures. Once you tell them about these devices it is almost impossible to get them back into thinking THEY must save themselves.

Once a student knows thay have an Audible, they will relax about altutde awareness. Since now they know that if they forget a little beep will remind them.

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Because altimeters nor instructors are infalible. Since, per your words altitude awareness is paramount, what is wrong with an extra device that does that and only that - making a skydiver aware of his altitude, in case he has forgotten?



Read the above again.

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That skydiver made his appointment through a cell phone, found the DZ on the internet and with his car-navigation sytem, had his first tandem filmed on video, pay's for his jumps electronically, jumps from GPS equipped airplanes and has an electronic AAD built into the rig.
"OMG - you'll become DEVICE DEPENDENT! Don't you know how dangerous that can be?"



None of the above is a life saving skill and the most important skill in a given sport. The entire reason for skydiving is to NOT DIE. The most important lesson to be learned is altitude awareness.

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The failure of an audible to produce a sound or the parachutist to hear that sound is NOT catastrophical.



Sure it would if you train them to act like Pavlov's dog. Case study time. A four way team had all four CYPRES's fire since their audibles reset at altitude. Tell me that they didn't become dependant on them.

Why teach a student to rely on them from the start?

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26. July 1997:
Hutchinson, Minnesota: Quotation from the CYPRES activation report: "I was flying camera head down, did not hear my audible altimeter and
lost altitude awareness.
I had made no attempt to deploy my main at the time my CYPRES fired. I was head down when my reserve deployed."

12.August 1998
La Ferte, France : Two freeflyers lost altitude awarness. One of the jumpers had two different audible warning devices, but heard none of them.
Both reserves were activated by the CYPRES, there was no attempt to pull the main canopy. Both jumpers landed without injuries.

25. September 1999
Skydive Lake Tahoe, CA, USA :
Quotation from the report: 1st jump at new DZ. Audible failed.Didn’t check visible. Broke of at about 1200 ft, still unaware of altitude. CYPRES
fired while I was tracking on my back. I saw my freebag coming out. I rolled away from it, then got slammed by my reserve. Normal landing.



Tell me these folks also didn't depend on them?

Now, I think they are good devices. But lets use your own example from above about driving to the DZ using the Navigation aids.

When you teach a person to drive, that is to move the car, do you teach them how to drive or how to get to a location? Do you try and teach them how to use the Nav aids before they even know what the peddles do?

AFF is learning how to move the car and what the peddles do. There is no need to teach them the Nav aids or how to play a CD while they drive. In fact it is a distraction that they do not need.

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Neither would the sound being to early be...



Yes it would. If they trained themselves to deploy as soon as they hear the beep and then it goes off early, and they deploy as soon as it beeps. They they throw a pilot chute in the middle of a jump. And that can and has killed people.

Teach them how to use the CD player later, after they already have the basics.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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the major lesson of altitude awareness.


On the first couple of jumps that's hardly in the students bag-of-tricks other than being able to read the altimeter.
If that device slows down or gets stuck, they are not going to experience 'ground rush' the way you or I would below 2000ft... The audible can, from jump one, be presented as a backup for those occasions.
Hell, I have seen a video from a cypres save on a tandem with the tandemmaster having more than 1800 jumps at his credit. Reserve went, just as he was getting his first glimpse that there might be 'something rotten in the state of Denmark...'

So much for 'altitude awareness'....
:S
(and I am quite sure that he wouldn't have made the cypres-save-video if he had been jumping with an audible set 500ft below his normal wave off...)
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I have seen students once they know about an AAD/RSL relax about emergency procedures. Once you tell them about these devices it is almost impossible to get them back into thinking THEY must save themselves.


Well, when they don't save themselves from losing altitude awareness and the BEEP BEEP sounds in freefall, they have to redo the jump.

Been looking at any price-lists lately? :)
AND: What's there to stop the student from perceiving YOU 'larger than life' i.e. "If I screw up totally Ron will be there @ 4000ft to save me from myself..." Giving them an audible may also convey the message "I might not be there to remind you or in the worst case pull for you; if that's the case, this MAY remind you...."

If your students start to relax to much for your taste, once you explained RSL and AAD, it's up to you to chew them an extra asshole. I'm sure you are up to that task. :)
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* bunch of dickheads, lucky to be alive*



The funny thing is, what probably all these examples have in common, is that they purchased their device as licensed skydivers, off student status (flying camera headdown, two freeflyers, tracking on his back - not the usual just-of-student-status stuff, if you ask me...)
Who knows what the outcome would have been, had they been trained in the proper use and limitation of audibles, from jump one on...

You know of any driving schools that teach without the seatbelts on and with the airbags disabled?

To me your reasoning seems a bit like wanting to keep the student in a permanent state of frenzy ("You MUST develop altitude awareness, else you DIE!") without handing the tools to save himself.
I'm more like "You must - AND WILL IN DUE TIME - develop altitude awareness, while at the same time doing al this freefall stuff. Since you probably don't have it yet, here is something that may remind you, should you get carried away - and the emphasis is definitely on MAY..."

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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>You know of any driving schools that teach without the seatbelts on
>and with the airbags disabled?

I don't know of any driving schools that teach you to use cruise control and satellite navigation from day 1. Even "just in case you get lost." Seatbelts and airbags don't do anything for driving students during the learning process, and are more akin to a cypres than a dytter.

>To me your reasoning seems a bit like wanting to keep the
>student in a permanent state of frenzy ("You MUST develop altitude
>awareness, else you DIE!")

Students MUST develop altitude awareness or they will probably die. Heck, if they don't pull they will probably die. The key is teaching that it's important, but not put them into a frenzy.

>AND: What's there to stop the student from perceiving YOU 'larger than life'

That is a valid concern! Fortunately, it is extremely clear to a student when a jumpmaster is not there. It is not so clear that the batteries in his dytter have just failed. (Quick quiz - what does a dytter with dead batteries sound like at 3000 feet?)

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It is easy to think of scenarios that make the case either way.

I think we can agree that students are already dependant on visual altimeters.

I would think the motivation to not fail a level would prevent laziness, the students know darn well they don't want to hear the tone, they should never hear it unless they're in big trouble.

If they blow past the flat line tone altitude (but without an audible), I think they are likely to get to cypres activation altitude also.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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I meant laziness in terms of expecting to wait for the tone until initiating action.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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On the first couple of jumps that's hardly in the students bag-of-tricks other than being able to read the altimeter.
If that device slows down or gets stuck, they are not going to experience 'ground rush' the way you or I would below 2000ft... The audible can, from jump one, be presented as a backup for those occasions.



Just like we both know people who have an AAD as a "Backup", but will not jump without one?

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Hell, I have seen a video from a cypres save on a tandem with the tandemmaster having more than 1800 jumps at his credit. Reserve went, just as he was getting his first glimpse that there might be 'something rotten in the state of Denmark...'



So, was he correct to use his CYPRES as an Altimeter? You want to place an important thing such as altitude awareness on yet ANOTHER device?

I would rather train the student, not just hand them another device. Thats like not bothering to teach them EP's since they have a CYPRES.

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AND: What's there to stop the student from perceiving YOU 'larger than life' i.e. "If I screw up totally Ron will be there @ 4000ft to save me from myself..."



Very valid concern, however we work to prevent that. And as Bill said, "What is the sound of a broken Dyter?" Its pretty easy to see an Instructor not being around.

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The funny thing is, what probably all these examples have in common, is that they purchased their device as licensed skydivers, off student status (flying camera headdown, two freeflyers, tracking on his back - not the usual just-of-student-status stuff, if you ask me...)
Who knows what the outcome would have been, had they been trained in the proper use and limitation of audibles, from jump one on...



OK quick show of hands...How many skydivers don't know that they should not go low......?

These people screwed up, but becoming dependant on a device, you want to TRAIN that dependancy from the start. I'd rather fight against it.

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To me your reasoning seems a bit like wanting to keep the student in a permanent state of frenzy ("You MUST develop altitude awareness, else you DIE!") without handing the tools to save himself.



Nope, I don't wnat them to develop bad habits. do you SCUBA dive? My Instrcutor would not let me dive a computer and made me learn the dive tables. I know others who were allowed to dive a computer and never learned the dive tables since they had one.

Who is safer? A Guy that can do without, but uses one, or one that must have the computer?

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"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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You want to place an important thing such as altitude awareness on yet ANOTHER device?



No, I think they are better off having another reminder in case of/when they do lose altitude awareness. They should never hear it, and they know the disadvantages of screwing up enough to hear it.

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I would rather train the student, not just hand them another device.



Why not do both? They are already dependant on their visual altimeter.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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No, I think they are better off having another reminder in case of/when they do lose altitude awareness. They should never hear it, and they know the disadvantages of screwing up enough to hear it.



The problem is in the exacution, not in the planning. You will have people rely on it and slack off of altitude awareness. We see it with EXPERIENCED jumpers, so why start them off down that path?

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Why not do both? They are already dependant on their visual altimeter.



They are also have two instructors...why not add a third? Thats got to be safer right?

Its not needed and does not add any real value. It also detracts from the main lesson.

Anyway its just my opinion. You are free to disagree. I think its bad, you like the idea.

We are both AFF I's and we can run our programs the way we think is best.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So, was he correct to use his CYPRES as an Altimeter? You want to place an important thing such as altitude awareness on yet ANOTHER device?


He wasn't "using the Cypres as an altimeter", his altimeter got slowed down and then stuck at (I believe / reading on the ground) 4000ft. He was using that altimeter, and his sense of duration, visual clues from the ground etcetera...
Had he had an audible warning, the cypres deployment might have been avoided.
But of course, that would have made him 'device dependent'.
What the outcome of the jump would have been if the cypres wasn't in place remains open to speculation. Let's not forget that this "student" had his sense of duration and knowledge what the ground looked like built in over 1800 jumps and that there was another one present of unknown abilities in the AFF-realm but good enough to produce an excellent film of the whole event, complete with the exit, several turns of the tandempair, two trips up to the drogue and finally the cypres fire @ 2000ft...

I want to place an important thing as altitude awareness completely on the student by training. In that training is incorporated an immediate LOUD warning that he failed the most important aspect and therefore has to redo. (as in "hear the beeps in freefall = failed on altitude awareness; hear the beeps while grabbing toggles = well at least that went well, now next time see if we can stop the planet from turning so fast...")

Feel free to point out where I said in previous posts that the student now can concentrate 100% on body position and his tasks in freefall, since the audible will warn him that it is time to pull. The audible warns him that this is the last chance to pull and in a few more seconds the AAD may kick in...
Of course, that message also comes across when an instructor takes your ripcord away from you or an AAD stops you.

However, if the instructor takes your ripcord WHILE THE AUDIBLE SOUNDS, it is instantly clear what happened.

The continuous suggestion that bringing the audible into play automatically means doing away with the training is not based on reality.

The student isn't "using" satellite navigation systems or diving computers. He is passively undergoing a reminder that he forgot something.

The next reminder (if he forgets it a couple of seconds longer) is the AAD. Students are stopped sometimes by AAD's and on these boards we have seen discussions at regular intervals about how long an instructor should chase a student below the hard deck. The consensus seems to be that below 2000ft they are on their own and if they fail to notice they are at the mercy of yet another electronic device.

When the student is a graduate with already 30 jumps or so (say around the A-license) and buys and uses the new gadget 'outside your sphere of influence' (since you moved on to the next student while he is graduated and therefore no longer your immediate concern), he may find that they are usually reliable, see everybody jump with one (especially when they are doing "the unstable stuff") and put his complete trust in the audible, pulling when it warns him...

That is how you get the incident reports you provided...

I'd rather have him in that position with either the knowledge that he has "always nailed it by pulling at least a full second before the audible sounded" or "having had to redo a few jumps and knowing instantly he screwed up"...
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Its pretty easy to see an Instructor not being around.



Further down the road, it is pretty easy NOT to see the instructor being around - floated up maybe a meter as the student is struggling to make a 360 (but doing a 270 or a 540...) followed by looking at the ground, looking at the altimeter and doing a handle touch...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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He wasn't "using the Cypres as an altimeter", his altimeter got slowed down and then stuck at (I believe / reading on the ground) 4000ft. He was using that altimeter, and his sense of duration, visual clues from the ground etcetera...



Sure he was. He let the CYPRES stop him.

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Feel free to point out where I said in previous posts that the student now can concentrate 100% on body position and his tasks in freefall, since the audible will warn him that it is time to pull. The audible warns him that this is the last chance to pull and in a few more seconds the AAD may kick in...
Of course, that message also comes across when an instructor takes your ripcord away from you or an AAD stops you.



OK so if the same lesson can be learned by the Instructor taking your handle....What good is an extra beep in your ear? And to get that extra beep you have a student with a mindset of EXACTLY what you said. "I don't have to worry about altitude, I can work out this turn I have since I have an audible that will tell me when I have to pull."

Over all I don't see a benefit that is not already covered in the current methods without an audible.

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However, if the instructor takes your ripcord WHILE THE AUDIBLE SOUNDS, it is instantly clear what happened.



Its just a clear when the instructor walks up on the ground and says, "Here, this is yours. You busted the hard deck." and at that point the Instructor and the student can talk about it. Instead of the student trying to fiqure out what that beep was, why he is under canopy and what to do next time...while he should be focusing on canopy flight.

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The continuous suggestion that bringing the audible into play automatically means doing away with the training is not based on reality.



There are PLENTY of examples of students that hear about an RSL and thus never pull the reserve handle. There are examples of students doing nothing knowing that an AAD is there. I would say that is reality.

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The student isn't "using" satellite navigation systems or diving computers. He is passively undergoing a reminder that he forgot something.



YOU brought those up, not me. And your example was a detrament to your position.

Look you run your program the way you want. I think it is a bad idea to encourage device dependancy.

But you as an AFF I can do as you please. I will not do it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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