WARNING, Maximum exit weight. Is it really?

[Reddog75 0]

Hey all,
Maybe some one can ease my mind a little on this.
My Pilot 168 says on the warning label "Maximum exit weight 269 lb.". I'm right on the cusp of this if not over. Should I worry about this? or the 1.6 WL?
I figured its just a liability thing and have 12 jumps on it anyway.

[rwieder 0]

Quote

Maybe some one can ease my mind a little on this.
My Pilot 168 says on the warning label "Maximum exit weight 269 lb.". I'm right on the cusp of this if not over. Should I worry about this? or the 1.6 WL?

You should be more concerned about the WL than the max. exit weight. Of course, a diet would cure both ills.

Best-
Richard

[DSE 3]

A 1.6 W/L at 80 jumps?
That's a much bigger concern than the placarded weight.
Why are you jumping such a high wingloading? (assuming your jump numbers are correct).

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Reddog75

Hey all,
Maybe some one can ease my mind a little on this.
My Pilot 168 says on the warning label "Maximum exit weight 269 lb.". I'm right on the cusp of this if not over. Should I worry about this? or the 1.6 WL?
I

It's bad but I think you'll probably get away with a broken femur or tibia/fibula and not die (spine and pelvis are also possibilities but don't happen as often).

Things like this fatality at 1.2 pounds per square foot http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212happen but are fairly rare.

After that learning experience you should (I only know one guy who made two trips to the hospital without learning his lesson, and no one who died after breaking themselves once) be fine.

Hospital time also isn't always bad. Five weeks after I broke my leg I missed the plane crash with no survivors.

Live life, embrace the experience, and it will be what it is.

[rwieder 0]

Quote

Why are you jumping such a high wingloading? (assuming your jump numbers are correct)

I thought about asking him that same question, but didn't for fear of being lambasted one way or another.

Best-
Richard

[parachutist 1]

You're stacking the deck against yourself. Yes it matters if you're over the max weight on that data tag: You're more likely to break your parachute during opening. But you have a reserve canopy, right? That canopy may or may not work. If you need the reserve, use it, but setting yourself up for a high probability of needing it is not a good strategy.

And the others were correct about 1.6 WL being far too high for your posted experience. Erring on the side of caution will get you a long way in this sport.

So after writing all that, I wondered what reserve you're using. Smart 150 is listed in your profile. Max weight on that canopy, as per the manufacturer is 264 lbs. Max recommended WL for beginner (You) is 1.0. Max recommended WL for intermediate is still 1.0. Advanced (not you for a very long time): 1.3 WL

So sell your gear and pat yourself on the back for changing your path before breaking yourself.

Chris

[JeffCa 0]

I'm not very experienced at this, but I'm thinking that exceeding the maximum weight on both of your canopies, and being way above the recommended wingloading for your experience level is not very bright. My signature line at the bottom of this post is coming to mind.

I don't mean to be morbid, but if anything happens to you, the comments on here will not be very kind and will be very focused on the decisions you made with gear selection.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Reddog75 0]

Aww come'on, it went like this:
23 landings on a student 270
43 landings on a 190
13 landings on the 168
I'm not doing 270 swoops and don't have a problem with landings.
Sure, I gained a few pounds over winter at the same time as down sizing but I expect to fly this canopy a long time.

[Quagmirian 40]

Reddog75

My Pilot 168 says on the warning label "Maximum exit weight 269 lb.". I'm right on the cusp of this if not over. Should I worry about this? or the 1.6 WL?

Yes and yes. Please jump something a lot bigger, if only for now.

[yoink 321]

Reddog75

Aww come'on, it went like this:
23 landings on a student 270
43 landings on a 190
13 landings on the 168
I'm not doing 270 swoops and don't have a problem with landings.
Sure, I gained a few pounds over winter at the same time as down sizing but I expect to fly this canopy a long time.

You're either a troll or a DGIT. Choose.

Jumping gear over its placarded max weight is dumb. At best you'll wear it out faster. At worst you're going to have unexpected opening and flight characteristics - anything from hard openings to broken lines.

Once that happens you're going to your reserve. If that's similarly sized you're now probably overloading your reserve. That seems like a great idea for a canopy you've never landed before, yes?....


Then you've got the wingloading at your current experience level. No respectable skydiving instructor in the world would recommend a 1.6 loading at your experience.

Then you've got the fact that you say you can only jump one weekend a month...



You're inexperienced and uncurrent, jumping gear that is far to small for your weight and is in danger of structural failure.


Sorry mate, I'm not going to sugar coat it. If you go this way you're a statistic waiting to happen. Please - get a larger parachute. Aim for something in the 250 to 280 range for now.

Larger people have unique challenges in the sport. You need to be aware of that.

[bumgangster 0]

It will be just fine, all you have to do is ignore the manufacturer, just like you've ignored all good advice regarding canopy selection.
How is life under that bridge?

[JackC1 0]

Bear in mind that it is quite likely that your harness and reserve also have the same maximum weight limit.

But like everyone else has already said, a wing loading of 1.6 at 80 jumps is the bigger safety issue.

[irishrigger 31]

yes you should indeed!-Worry about the 1.6 wingloading if you only have 80 jumps as stated in your profile.
personally speaking a couple pounds over the max weight limit is not a huge problem, i am a big boy also.so know what that is about, but dude i got almost 7000 jumps under my belt.

the biggest concern here as everyone has mentioned sofar that if you have only 80 jumps a wing loading of 1.6,which is far more dangerous!!! 1.6 WL is considered to be almost extreme for an expirienced jumper.
to be honest,i am shocked,suprised and worried that your instructors and your DZ have allowed you to downsize so fast! making rough calcultations i take it your exit weight is 270lbs, you said you did 23 jumps on a 270 then 43 on a 190. you had a wingloading of 1.4 on that 190 and you did not have a Licence at that stage. that is way outside what any manual and guidelines say.
it is proably not what you want to hear and you think we are all talking BS,as you know what your doing and we dont etc etc.
I will ask you to look through the incident forums and see how many incidents are listed there who thought the same as you.

I hope you reconsider your wing loading! none of want to hear or read about you in the incident forum.

My 2 cents

Rodger

[jclalor 12]

5 post on Dz.com, his profile says that his reserve is only a 150.

This sure has all the makings of a serious question.

[Reddog75 0]

irishrigger

yes you should indeed!-Worry about the 1.6 wingloading if you only have 80 jumps as stated in your profile.
personally speaking a couple pounds over the max weight limit is not a huge problem, i am a big boy also.so know what that is about, but dude i got almost 7000 jumps under my belt.

the biggest concern here as everyone has mentioned sofar that if you have only 80 jumps a wing loading of 1.6,which is far more dangerous!!! 1.6 WL is considered to be almost extreme for an expirienced jumper.
to be honest,i am shocked,suprised and worried that your instructors and your DZ have allowed you to downsize so fast! making rough calcultations i take it your exit weight is 270lbs, you said you did 23 jumps on a 270 then 43 on a 190. you had a wingloading of 1.4 on that 190 and you did not have a Licence at that stage. that is way outside what any manual and guidelines say.
it is proably not what you want to hear and you think we are all talking BS,as you know what your doing and we dont etc etc.
I will ask you to look through the incident forums and see how many incidents are listed there who thought the same as you.

I hope you reconsider your wing loading! none of want to hear or read about you in the incident forum.

My 2 cents

Rodger

wow!! Honestly I don't know what to think.

I take my inexperience very seriously and value the mistakes & experience of others and for this I thank you all (except for 'yoink'. He can go to Hell)

My confusion comes from all the coaches, JM's and DZO's I've interacted with in the last year and not until now has there been any hint of a red flag. I take full responsibility for my decisions on this. I must carry my weight well I think.

I don't want to argue the point but help me understand:Please explain the flight characteristics of an 'extremely' WL pilot 168.

High openings, conservative set up and landings. I haven't felt scared on no-wind days and do fine, I just come in fast. I take learning how to really fly this canopy seriously.

Yes, the WL is out of control and I am prepared to do something about it.

thank you for the concern.

[rsb5267 0]

HAH he also says in his previous thread that he jumps at most once a month. This is either 100% a troll or he is serious.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

August 3rd.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[yoink 321]

Reddog75

I take my inexperience very seriously and value the mistakes & experience of others and for this I thank you all (except for 'yoink'. He can go to Hell)

Please explain why I can go to hell?

My tone? Sorry - but your post is so far from believable that I stand by my conclusion that you're either trolling, or are so far in the danger zone that I'd consider you a DGIT -If you don't know what that means it's 'Dead Guy In Training'.
You should be frightened about where your decision making is taking you and I'm being honest about it, not mean.
The guy above me has listed a date... if you're not aware of that tradition it's called 'Bounce Bingo'. When an accident is a near certainty other jumpers try to predict when they'll go in as a means to get across how serious the situation is in their opinion.... Unfortunately I've already won one on these boards.

Take the emotion out of the posting. My advice is meant to keep you safe.

Evaluate at where you are - :

1) Inexperienced.
At 80 - 100 jumps conventional wisdom is that you should be jumping a canopy at no more than 1:1. For you weight that's somewhere between a 250 and 280 square foot canopy.

2) Uncurrent.
You've stated that you can only jump one weekend a month. With that level of currency you should be erring even more on the side of caution.

3) Displaying poor decision making.
Even if you don't understand the 'why's' of how wingloading will affect canopy flight I'm struggling to understand how anyone sees a manufacturers recommendation and then think it can possibly be OK to exceed that without expert knowledge. Explain to me the decision making that got you into this situation in the first place?


To any experienced skydiver those are 3 major red flags and chances are that if you don't do something about it, you're going to have a serious / fatal accident. That might be on the next jump - the sky doesn't respect any intentions you might have to investigate or learn about the situation and it's important you understand that and do something about it now.


To answer your question, a higher wingloading makes EVERYTHING more radical. Things happen faster and the results are more extreme.
On a 1:1 loaded canopy if you bury a toggle you might have what feels to be a quick turn. On a 1.6 loaded canopy if you do the same thing you might spin the canopy up. Imagine doing that by accident down low. Now imagine getting your other hand trapped in the riser twists... it's happened before.
It'll definitely turn faster and dive a lot harder. Recovery to level flight will take longer and the canopy will react differently to different input types...

The problem comes because everybody at your experience level believes they can handle that and know all about it. I did - It's called the 100-jump-wonder syndrome.
The problem is that people think about the best possible outcome rather than planning for the worst... I could probably jump a 70sqft parachute and survive, with a decent helping of luck and a big open dz. But under the same canopy, if something's gone wrong - maybe I'm landing off in a tight urban environment, or have to make a last minute emergency alteration in my landing, well, then I'm probably fucked.

That's where you are at the moment.
In ideal circumstances, every time you jump that gear you're using up luck to survive. If you encounter less-than-ideal circumstances then you simply don't have the experience and ingrained habits to get you to the ground safely.

By the time you're flying a 1.6 wing, you need your responses to be instinctual. You need to inherently understand the differences between control types - front and rear risers, toggles and harness and what the combinatorial effect of each do. You need to be planning you flight before you get there and that includes the ability to look around the sky and reliably predict what everyone else will be doing 30 seconds to a minute from now.

All of that comes with jumping, and jumping regularly, but you can start making smart decisions now. Fix that first.

[airtwardo 6]

Your high wing loading hasn't bit you YET - it most likely eventually will.

At your experience level you are leaving yourself no margin for error...not a smart way to play it if you plan on being around the sport for a while.

As far as overloading the placarded max, I have lots of experience with doing that in the course of jumping demos in which lots of extra gear is used.

Being over the max on demonstration jumps I make it a rule to never take it to terminal. Besides the opening being rather uncomfortable it tends to put quite a bit of wear on the canopy itself...to the tune of about a 40 to 1 ratio in terms of jumps.

Even just doing hop & pops wear the gear faster than normal, but less so than at terminal.

IF the canopy itself doesn't split a seam (I had 4 do it) then the line trim will go way out of spec. in a very short time, making the flight characteristics less than optimal. It may open with a constant turn, it may turn better one way than the other, it may not flare well...

To keep the canopy flying as designed you will be replacing line sets 3 times as often as anyone else...not cheap.

In the interest of safety overall - you're best bet is to observe the weight restrictions and the wing loading recommendations...they aren't put there to spoil your fun, they're there to help keep you alive.

You can learn for the experience of others or you can choose the hard, painful and costly way and learn from your own mistakes...your choice.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DSE 3]

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High openings, conservative set up and landings. I haven't felt scared on no-wind days and do fine, I just come in fast.

I can think of one dead guy, one paraplegic, and at least three tib/fibs that have said exactly the same thing, one of them just before he got on a plane.

It's like hearing a guy say "I've done this XXX number of times and never gotten hurt. That wingloading at your jump numbers is an accident that hasn't happened yet, if indeed your numbers are real.
Pray that your bucket of experience (500+ jumps for that wingloading) fills up before your bucket of luck runs out.

[chutem 0]

The important question here is will you hurt/kill only yourself when this catches up to you, or will you hurt/kill someone else?

Care to name any coaches/instructors who have told you this is ok?

[rwieder 0]

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HAH he also says in his previous thread that he jumps at most once a month. This is either 100% a troll or he is serious.

Methinks he's a lawyer, or a reporter gathering information. he's no sky diver.

Best-
Richard

[Reddog75 0]

rwieder

Quote

HAH he also says in his previous thread that he jumps at most once a month. This is either 100% a troll or he is serious.

Methinks he's a lawyer, or a reporter gathering information. he's no sky diver.

Best-
Richard

I'm neither a troll or a lawyer. You guys are pretty quick to pounce.

Yoink- I can take criticism no problem, I even welcome it.
I called Bullshit to your troll comment and the unfamiliar acronym but that's 'water under the bridge' now (pun intended).

I have decided that up-sizing is in my near future. I have nothing to gain by pushing the envelope and everything to lose. even a brand new rig.
I have to find out how I got here though!

Thanks again for all the input.
we're not all trolls!!!!!

[GoneCodFishing 23]

Do yourself a favour and upsize your reserve as well, pronto.

You say you pull high, and that's kosher, but if you get span up good in your 1.6 loaded main and take a bit too long to cut it you'll find yourself low on the saddle, possibly landing off, and effectively downsizing to a reserve loaded at 1.8 which you probably haven't jumped before. Definitely not an ideal situation...

[mr2mk1g 10]

Reddog75

I have decided that up-sizing is in my near future.

Good call. It takes a bigger man to listen that it does to fight.