michaelmullins 81 #1 Posted October 10, 2022 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisHoward 8 #2 October 13, 2022 You get that little oxygen issue figured out this time? Or are you still running trial and error? 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #3 October 14, 2022 Even with the best oxygen system, are pilots allowed to fly at those altitudes for only a short time? Doesn't this seem like an obvious question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdcollura 5 #4 October 14, 2022 Not cheap. But I'm all for this. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,156 #5 November 2, 2022 November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypilotA1 67 #6 November 3, 2022 10 hours ago, gowlerk said: November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well. All is well! Official announcement to follow very soon! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdcollura 5 #7 November 14, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 12:03 PM, gowlerk said: November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well. Good morning, Yes - They did it around 11:45 AM. I was not on it because I didn't want to basically "buy a car" for $15k (they had 4 jumpers) - For 3 minutes of free fall. The DZO there did it as well (state record too)! Not cheap but great to hear about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypilotA1 67 #8 December 23, 2022 (edited) Edited December 23, 2022 by skypilotA1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alygator 2 #9 December 25, 2022 Also record for the more expensive commercial jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #10 December 25, 2022 On 10/14/2022 at 3:57 PM, sundevil777 said: Even with the best oxygen system, are pilots allowed to fly at those altitudes for only a short time? Doesn't this seem like an obvious question? Is there a limitation? Seems as though pilots know it can't be defended. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,495 #11 December 25, 2022 4 hours ago, sundevil777 said: Is there a limitation? Seems as though pilots know it can't be defended. There doesn't seem to be a rule. I looked. If anyone can find an actual 'unpressurized aircraft altitude limitation' rule, I'd appreciate it. I dug around a bit a while back, and it seems that unpressurized aircraft don't go much above 25k. It reads like it's a 'best practice' that everyone follows, rather than an actual FAR. In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k. There's a bunch of different reasons for that. The Concorde went up to 60k, but it had a few reasons for that. Less dense air meant it could go faster up higher. It was also able to do emergency descents (down to survivable altitudes in case of depressurization) faster than 'normal' airliners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #12 December 26, 2022 3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k. Glider record is a little over 74K, although pressurized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmullins 81 #13 December 26, 2022 17 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: There doesn't seem to be a rule. I looked. If anyone can find an actual 'unpressurized aircraft altitude limitation' rule, I'd appreciate it. I dug around a bit a while back, and it seems that unpressurized aircraft don't go much above 25k. It reads like it's a 'best practice' that everyone follows, rather than an actual FAR. In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k. There's a bunch of different reasons for that. The Concorde went up to 60k, but it had a few reasons for that. Less dense air meant it could go faster up higher. It was also able to do emergency descents (down to survivable altitudes in case of depressurization) faster than 'normal' airliners. Citation X regularly flies at 51,000' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,495 #14 December 26, 2022 1 hour ago, michaelmullins said: Citation X regularly flies at 51,000' Thanks for the correction. So in general, nobody but the military and record attempts goes much above 51k. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #15 December 26, 2022 1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said: Thanks for the correction. So in general, nobody but the military and record attempts goes much above 51k. The altitude when pressurized isn't important to this discussion. I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,156 #16 December 26, 2022 18 minutes ago, sundevil777 said: I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude. Wrong thread and wrong forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #17 December 26, 2022 15 minutes ago, gowlerk said: Wrong thread and wrong forum. I understand that, but it has been shown that nobody should count on being coherent at 41k, no matter what type of oxygen system is available. I'm asking what pilot guidance there is for unpressurized flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,156 #18 December 26, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, sundevil777 said: I understand that, but it has been shown that nobody should count on being coherent at 41k, no matter what type of oxygen system is available. I'm asking what pilot guidance there is for unpressurized flight. I don't know about any guidance and there probably is none because there is very little reason to be that high in an unpressurized aircraft. There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used. We do have reason to believe that on the first attempt the measures used were only partially successful. And it would appear likely that the problems have been addressed well enough that some better results have been achieved. Some information was given about the incident you are concerned with but there is no reason for you to expect more to be given here. This type of jumping adventure is at the edge of what is possible and comes complete with risks that are both known and unknown. Along with considerable cost. As long as the participants are fully aware, the FAA has no objections, and they are no longer offering tandems more power to them. I would not participate at any price and I recommend you don't either. Edited December 26, 2022 by gowlerk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #19 December 26, 2022 8 minutes ago, gowlerk said: There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used. This is not true, even with the best oxygen delivery system. Even you said it was at the edge of what is possible, because it isn't possible for us to expect to be coherent at those altitudes, even pilots. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,156 #20 December 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, sundevil777 said: This is not true, even with the best oxygen delivery system. Even you said it was at the edge of what is possible, because it isn't possible for us to expect to be coherent at those altitudes, even pilots. The results speak for themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmullins 81 #21 December 26, 2022 3 hours ago, sundevil777 said: The altitude when pressurized isn't important to this discussion. I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude. The pilot was not impaired, the pilot was monitored constantly by a pulse oximeter, and the same pilot has flown test and actual jump flights to 41,000' on many occasions while having to operate the aircraft within a 5 mile radius and maintain exact altitudes in this RVSM environment. This pilot has likely more time at 41,000' unpressurized than anyone on the planet, could be wrong. Also, oxygen saturation at 41K on 100%, pressure breathing oxygen is actually higher that oxygen saturation on a normal jump from 15,000', which we have documented. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #22 December 27, 2022 Is there guidance for pilots? USPA says we ought to use a partial pressure suit above 40k, I remember you saying something about a military jumper limit is/was 43k. What about pilots? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,670 #23 December 27, 2022 4 hours ago, michaelmullins said: The pilot was not impaired, the pilot was monitored constantly by a pulse oximeter, and the same pilot has flown test and actual jump flights to 41,000' on many occasions while having to operate the aircraft within a 5 mile radius and maintain exact altitudes in this RVSM environment. This pilot has likely more time at 41,000' unpressurized than anyone on the planet, could be wrong. Also, oxygen saturation at 41K on 100%, pressure breathing oxygen is actually higher that oxygen saturation on a normal jump from 15,000', which we have documented. Mike, anyone here who doubts your credentials or abilities is a fool. To set the matter straight are you willing to explain this flight profile from the fatality jump? If I have the wrong data my apologies, but if it's accurate I can see why some might conclude you were impaired. Mullins N321LH flt path & graph.pdf 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 322 #24 December 27, 2022 looks like some zero g flight time to me. why not for the price paid for the ride. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,881 #25 December 27, 2022 20 hours ago, gowlerk said: There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used. There are several reasons that low pressures cannot be dealt with (without pressurization.) It's not an issue of not having the right procedures/equipment, it's a problem with Boyle's Law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites