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alfonso904

Why are there so many fatalities this year?

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"You know what I call AFF? Accelerated Death. We tell these folks they can fly and never give them the proper amount of time to truly digest the inconvenience of dying. If they could they'd likely slow down and learn a bit more than wave, arch, reach, pull."

                           ~Uncle Moe, on AFF

         

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In my opinion, it is complacency.  In almost all cases, it is very experienced solo jumpers, or instructors flying perfectly good canopies into the ground, performing improper procedures under canopy, and just plain low turns. . The USPA Safety & Training Committee is fully aware of the statistics and trying every way possible to encourage safe landings. 

 

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7 minutes ago, skypilotA1 said:

In my opinion, it is complacency.  In almost all cases, it is very experienced solo jumpers, or instructors flying perfectly good canopies into the ground, performing improper procedures under canopy, and just plain low turns. . The USPA Safety & Training Committee is fully aware of the statistics and trying every way possible to encourage safe landings. 

 

Meanwhile, USPA endorses canopy piloting competitions that encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways.

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12 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

Meanwhile, USPA endorses canopy piloting competitions that encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways.

You are WAY off base with that comment. USPA encourages skydivers to chase their passion, and promotes best practices regardless of the discipline.

Is canopy piloting safe? Nope. Not even close. CP is dangerous - damn dangerous - but that doesn't mean USPA should discourage it. Is freeflying safe? Nope. How about CRW? FS? And then there's speed skydiving. Consider a premature deployment at 300 mph. Nothing we do is safe.

The CP culture is the most peer-policed discipline in skydiving. Go to a CP comp sometime and observe. You will see the best pilots on the planet coaching, mentoring, and critiquing - all with the goal of keeping one another safe.

CP has come a long, long way since the days of toggle hooks and ditch digging. Today's pilots have a deep understanding of the science behind the discipline and continuously hone their skills and education to stay as safe as possible. They are also acutely aware of the risks.

From an organizational perspective, the ISC (International Skydiving Commission) and national-level organizations like USPA have and do modify competitions rules and practices to make safety a top priority. One great example is the change in distance rules that now require pilots to stay below a certain height for a portion of the run before climbing their canopies. This was done specifically because folks were getting injured by climbing so high that landings were becoming sketchy.

I have been following the competition CP community for over a decade. My son is one of the top pilots in the world. Do I worry about him? Every single day. Would I ever dream of discouraging him from doing what he loves? Never.

USPA does not "endorse canopy piloting competitions that encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways". USPA encourages skydivers of all disciplines to conduct their activities as safely as possible. Some disciplines are more dangerous than others, but none of them are safe.

Canopy piloting is not safe. Neither is any skydive you have ever made or ever will.

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37 minutes ago, chuckakers said:

Today's pilots have a deep understanding of the science behind the discipline and continuously hone their skills and education to stay as safe as possible. They are also acutely aware of the risks.

The problem there is the people who only think they're pilots of this ilk, and instead are more of the "how hard can it be?" school. Because they're naturals. The breed seems to be waning, but they're still around.

Wendy P.

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1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

The problem there is the people who only think they're pilots of this ilk, and instead are more of the "how hard can it be?" school. Because they're naturals. The breed seems to be waning, but they're still around.

Wendy P.

Very true. I was specifically replying about competition CP where there is a lot of safety enforcement and monitoring. The vast majority of CP incidents happen outside competitions by non-competitors. Those are the folks who are too cool for school.

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average for the last ten years is about 20 per year in the US. However if we’re comparing 2022 numbers to 2020 and 2021 it seems  that this year has been significantly more deadly- 50% more fatalities so far in ‘22 compared to ‘21- but really ‘20 and ‘21 were just covid times and not as many people jumping which probably lead to less fatalities.

 

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3 hours ago, wmw999 said:

The problem there is the people who only think they're pilots of this ilk, and instead are more of the "how hard can it be?" school. Because they're naturals. The breed seems to be waning, but they're still around.

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

Re:  The breed seems to be waning

I believe that is called Natural Selection.

Jerry Baumchen

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3 hours ago, chuckakers said:

You are WAY off base with that comment. USPA encourages skydivers to chase their passion, and promotes best practices regardless of the discipline.

Is canopy piloting safe? Nope. Not even close. CP is dangerous - damn dangerous - but that doesn't mean USPA should discourage it. Is freeflying safe? Nope. How about CRW? FS? And then there's speed skydiving. Consider a premature deployment at 300 mph. Nothing we do is safe.

The CP culture is the most peer-policed discipline in skydiving. Go to a CP comp sometime and observe. You will see the best pilots on the planet coaching, mentoring, and critiquing - all with the goal of keeping one another safe.

CP has come a long, long way since the days of toggle hooks and ditch digging. Today's pilots have a deep understanding of the science behind the discipline and continuously hone their skills and education to stay as safe as possible. They are also acutely aware of the risks.

From an organizational perspective, the ISC (International Skydiving Commission) and national-level organizations like USPA have and do modify competitions rules and practices to make safety a top priority. One great example is the change in distance rules that now require pilots to stay below a certain height for a portion of the run before climbing their canopies. This was done specifically because folks were getting injured by climbing so high that landings were becoming sketchy.

I have been following the competition CP community for over a decade. My son is one of the top pilots in the world. Do I worry about him? Every single day. Would I ever dream of discouraging him from doing what he loves? Never.

USPA does not "endorse canopy piloting competitions that encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways". USPA encourages skydivers of all disciplines to conduct their activities as safely as possible. Some disciplines are more dangerous than others, but none of them are safe.

Canopy piloting is not safe. Neither is any skydive you have ever made or ever will.

@chuckakers, I stated, “Meanwhile, USPA endorses canopy piloting competitions that encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways.” You then agreed with me that canopy piloting is not safe. I’m not wrong that canopy piloting competitions encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways during and outside canopy piloting competitions.

I recognize your history with canopy piloting competitions and why you defended them the way you did. However, you must agree that high performance landing approaches on highly loaded canopies increases the risk of injury or death compared to less radical approaches and wing loadings.

As for the safety record of canopy piloting competitions, yes, the vast majority of CP incidents happen outside competitions because the vast majority of high performance landings occur outside of CP competitions. They happen at local drop zones - with less experienced skydivers watching - admiring. It’s interpreted as, “That’s the way the best canopy pilots land! The best fly little canopies and land in a very a unsafe way - I want to be the best so I’m gonna do that!” Then they rapidly progress through smaller and smaller canopies with more and more weight until they get way ahead of themselves, and you know the rest. In fact, one of the most recent fatalities was at a canopy piloting competition.

I understand that we’re all adults and we’re all capable of making decisions and taking responsibility for those decisions. However, let’s at least recognize that awarding people giving them financial incentives to fly faster and faster in more and more radical ways has some influence and contributes to the number of low turn incidents and fatalities each year.

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51 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Wendy,

Re:  The breed seems to be waning

I believe that is called Natural Selection.

Jerry Baumchen

Well, each year there’s a new crop of first graders who haven’t learned the previous lessons, and each year there’s a new crop of self-designated naturally skilled pilots who decide swooping is for them.

I think that the fact that the smallest possible container isn’t as cool as it was 20 years ago contributes, along with the learning that’s passed on — it’s more likely to be better information now, simply because the body of knowledge is so much better 

Wendy P. 

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18 hours ago, alfonso904 said:

Is it because the sport has grown a lot and more people are jumping post-covid? Have we gotten complacent in regards to safety as a community? 

It is equally likely that this is a normal occurrence in an effectively random distribution of deaths per year.

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2 hours ago, jakebaustin said:

average for the last ten years is about 20 per year in the US. However if we’re comparing 2022 numbers to 2020 and 2021 it seems  that this year has been significantly more deadly- 50% more fatalities so far in ‘22 compared to ‘21- but really ‘20 and ‘21 were just covid times and not as many people jumping which probably lead to less fatalities.

 

Covid causation aside, the raw numbers don't tell the story. Fatalities per total jumps is a more accurate reflection of our safety. image.png.82471575111c5839438a2b8cc038a458.png

Additionally, it's very hard to point at anything a year at a time because the sampling is so small that it only takes a minor shift in the annual total to make a significant move as a percentage. USPA uses 5-year and 10-year averages (by decade) to provide a meaningful look at trends. That said, I truly hope I see any 12-month period with no fatalities in my lifetime.image.png.171a69d45ec1b5d217a144788ed61c6b.png

image.png.6a17eaa06d3333a5d877883eb6886859.png

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19 hours ago, OrphanBlue said:

"You know what I call AFF? Accelerated Death. We tell these folks they can fly and never give them the proper amount of time to truly digest the inconvenience of dying. If they could they'd likely slow down and learn a bit more than wave, arch, reach, pull."

                           ~Uncle Moe, on AFF

         

Uncle Moe is incorrect. AFF has proven to be the best training method skydiving has ever had and on the whole produces the safest skydivers when taught properly.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, chuckakers said:

AFF has proven to be the best training method skydiving has ever had and on the whole produces the safest skydivers when taught properly.

Chuck, I'll be the first to bow out to your knowledge of skydiving as a whole. However, I think Mr. Moe's point spoke more to the human element. Legend has it that, once upon a back when, instructors knew the students. Had conversations with them. Tutored them. As my Pops would say, "Made it real to 'em.". Now I'm not calling anyone out or speaking ill by any means but I would bet you dollar to doughnuts if I walked up on one of my AFFI's they wouldn't even know my name. Because I have. And they didn't. They took my money, taught me a handful of tricks, told me I had to pay extra if I wanted my videos (you know, to review, maybe learn from) and then put a big blue stamp on my forehead and "Congratulations! You owe a case of beer!". You've jumped that DZ. Many times I would wager. It has a reputation. And that's how they produce "the safest skydivers". 

Edited by OrphanBlue
Beer grammar
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5 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

You then agreed with me that canopy piloting is not safe. I’m not wrong that canopy piloting competitions encourage skydivers to land in very unsafe ways during and outside canopy piloting competitions.

The problem here is that you think the risks that you choose are acceptable and that society should be okay with them. But you also think that others take risks you wouldn't and that should be stopped. The level of hypocrisy you exhibit is one that I would like to see ended. But you have a right to your opinion and I will just have to accept it. Do you get the point yet?

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23 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The problem here is that you think the risks that you choose are acceptable and that society should be okay with them. But you also think that others take risks you wouldn't and that should be stopped. The level of hypocrisy you exhibit is one that I would like to see ended. But you have a right to your opinion and I will just have to accept it. Do you get the point yet?

What led you to believe I suggested anything should be stopped? 

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2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You seemed to object to USPA "promoting" CP through competitions. As if you felt it was wrong.

I was responding to Paul’s comment regarding, “The USPA Safety & Training Committee is fully aware of the statistics and trying every way possible to encourage safe landings.”

I was objecting to Paul’s assertion that USPA is trying EVERY WAY POSSIBLE to encourage safe landings. By promoting canopy piloting completions, they aren’t encouraging safe landings - they are doing the opposite. They are showcasing the most unsafe landing approaches possible and encouraging some skydivers to aspire to do the same very unsafe landings.

I’m not suggesting we eliminate CP competitions, I’m just suggesting we recognize the impact CP competitions have on the general skydiving population and it’s contribution to low turn fatalities.

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it makes more sense now.  the "everything possible" left out a very important part.  the part about "without pissing a lot of folks off".  it is not that hard to add an endorsement to a license, in fact i thought that was the way at least one other country did it.  it may take a bit to come up with the qualifications and then to train and add more examiners, but it could just be as simple as tasking s&ta's with qualifying them.  in fact, i know i could come up with the system in a weekend of screwing around, then put it up for folks to look at and discuss.  if uspa were so inclined, they could have it done and in place by safety day.  but i would hate for it to interfere with competitions, after all, this is possibly saving lives not business.

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45 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

USPA has to include the likelihood of a rule being enforceable

Wendy P. 

that's the easy part, uspa dropzones can make the jumper who doesn't have the required endorsement to get it or not jump, much the same as they do with an aad now.

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