Why are there so many fatalities this year?

[chuckakers 370]

14 hours ago, OrphanBlue said:

Chuck, I'll be the first to bow out to your knowledge of skydiving as a whole. However, I think Mr. Moe's point spoke more to the human element. Legend has it that, once upon a back when, instructors knew the students. Had conversations with them. Tutored them. As my Pops would say, "Made it real to 'em.". Now I'm not calling anyone out or speaking ill by any means but I would bet you dollar to doughnuts if I walked up on one of my AFFI's they wouldn't even know my name. Because I have. And they didn't. They took my money, taught me a handful of tricks, told me I had to pay extra if I wanted my videos (you know, to review, maybe learn from) and then put a big blue stamp on my forehead and "Congratulations! You owe a case of beer!". You've jumped that DZ. Many times I would wager. It has a reputation. And that's how they produce "the safest skydivers". 

I can only speak for my personal experiences, but I do visit a LOT of DZ's. I have found that it's not about AFF vs other training methods as Moe suggests. It's more of a DZ culture thing, not which training discipline was used.

There is also NO evidence that AFF grads are less safe than others. Quite the opposite. AFF students are - on average - much better equipped to transition to group skydiving than static line/IAD grads because they spend much of their training actually doing basic FS.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

that's the easy part, uspa dropzones can make the jumper who doesn't have the required endorsement to get it or not jump, much the same as they do with an aad now.

 

2 hours ago, chuckakers said:

... I have found that it's not about AFF vs other training methods as Moe suggests. It's more of a DZ culture thing, not which training discipline was used...

^This. I currently jump at a small DZ. I've was a regular at a larger DZ before Covid.

Both places have a very inclusive culture for students.

It goes without saying that everyone knows everyone else at the small DZ. The students are welcomed as new potential jump partners by the other fun jumpers. 

Even at the larger DZ, the S&TA (and head instructor) knows all the students. He may not know exactly where they are in the progression, but he has a general idea. 
The instructors communicate well among themselves. They make logbook entries that allow the next instructor to know what's going on. And if it isn't clear, I've seen the student and the instructor that's prepping them go and find the instructor from the previous jump. That previous instructor will then sit in on the pre-jump brief and offer both the student and the next instructor guidance on what needs work and what doesn't. 

Also, the DZO is very inclusive. I've directly heard him tell newer students that "once you've done an AFF jump, you are part of the community. You're one of us. You're welcome at the parties, bonfires, or just sitting around on weather holds." He does a lot to cultivate the fun jumper community. That's because he, his wife and his sons are all fun jumpers too. 
He freely admits he does it so that he & his family have people to jump with. 

[grimmie 173]

Every year the human factor contributes to fatal and life altering incidents in skydiving. And the life altering incidents are usually more brutal than an outright fatality. Some people can't react correctly to the situations they encounter and rapidly wreck themselves. It doesn't matter how much training, or how safe the DZO tries to run things.

 

I always review incidents, no matter how serious, with the jumper involved. It's pretty eye opening the responses. 

As long as the human factor is involved, we will never eliminate the accidents. We can only strive to get the information out there and mentor those that need it.

 

I think we do a disservice to many newer jumpers by not explaining to them how dangerous this sport can actually be. This week my 54th friend went in at Deland. Now granted, I know a lot of skydivers around the world, but this shouldn't be hidden from the newbies.

 

As far as the USPA and the BSRs, if every DZO took a hands on approach to safety and stopped some of the shenanigans their own staff and fun jumpers are pulling, we wouldn't need so many rules. It all starts at the DZO level. Good planes, good pilots, good staff, good riggers, good load organizers and overview of the fun jumpers and a well prepared DZ in case of an emergency all lead to a better success rate in skydiving.

It doesn't eliminate the human factor, but it sure helps mitigate it.

[kleggo 138]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:01 PM, OrphanBlue said:

 

                           ~Uncle Moe, on AFF

         

"uncle moe" a very early AFF instructor

[sfzombie13 307]

5 hours ago, grimmie said:

 

As far as the USPA and the BSRs, if every DZO took a hands on approach to safety and stopped some of the shenanigans their own staff and fun jumpers are pulling, we wouldn't need so many rules. It all starts at the DZO level. Good planes, good pilots, good staff, good riggers, good load organizers and overview of the fun jumpers and a well prepared DZ in case of an emergency all lead to a better success rate in skydiving.

It doesn't eliminate the human factor, but it sure helps mitigate it.

i'm not sure i agree with this or not, but i don't have enough information on it to make a call.  i wouldn't think that the last several fatalities have occurred at places where these things were lacking, but i don't know and don't want to make judgements.  i don't think i've seen any questionable things proposed around a dropzone since the late '90s, different world back then. 

if uspa instituted an endorsement system it would fix it in a very short time.  it could be proposed, take comments and suggestions, and implemented by the end of the year 2023.  everyone would have a chance at their say, and anyone could be grandfathered in for any endorsement they needed.  anyone wanting one from then on would have to pass the test from the local s&ta.  in a very short time we would show any new jumpers that we are serious about safety and it would become the norm.  maybe it wouldn't stop all the fatalities but i am willing to bet it would stop some.  if it stops one it's worth it in my opinion.

[base615 77]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:21 AM, OrphanBlue said:

Chuck, I'll be the first to bow out to your knowledge of skydiving as a whole. However, I think Mr. Moe's point spoke more to the human element. Legend has it that, once upon a back when, instructors knew the students. Had conversations with them. Tutored them. As my Pops would say, "Made it real to 'em.". Now I'm not calling anyone out or speaking ill by any means but I would bet you dollar to doughnuts if I walked up on one of my AFFI's they wouldn't even know my name. Because I have. And they didn't. They took my money, taught me a handful of tricks, told me I had to pay extra if I wanted my videos (you know, to review, maybe learn from) and then put a big blue stamp on my forehead and "Congratulations! You owe a case of beer!". You've jumped that DZ. Many times I would wager. It has a reputation. And that's how they produce "the safest skydivers". 

Sounds like a terrible DZ. The DZ I jump at (in Australia) is smaller than some of the massive US DZs but is big enough to be simultaneously running two caravans and churning out tonnes of AFF students but all of the instructors know the students they bring through.

Edited October 6, 2022 by base615

[OrphanBlue 39]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:22 AM, chuckakers said:

There is also NO evidence that AFF grads are less safe than others. Quite the opposite. AFF students are - on average - much better equipped to transition to group skydiving than static line/IAD grads because they spend much of their training actually doing basic FS.

Counterpoint: how many student  fatalities are a direct result of FS vs. those being abruptly reunited with the Earth? I know where the focus lies and am pining for change where it doesn't. All sarcasm aside "Send it" is not advice and "How was your landing" should never be heard after E1 or E2. Watch student landings, ya'll. We all know yer turning loads. I don't care how competent you think I am. Basically...

On 10/5/2022 at 1:23 PM, grimmie said:

I think we do a disservice to many newer jumpers by not explaining to them how dangerous this sport can actually be.

Postscript: I'm only here to learn and share info. Thanks to all for humoring me.

Edited October 7, 2022 by OrphanBlue
Beer grammar

[OrphanBlue 39]

22 hours ago, base615 said:

Sounds like a terrible DZ.

Depends entirely on your definition of "terrible". My training was USPA to the absolute letter, student gear was some of the best I've ever come across, instructors were trained by, literally, one of the best of the best (and it showed) and I'm still not an "Incidents" thread. Just wish I hadn't been snowed with all of the "Sky Family" bullshit. And some other stuff. I'll get to all that if/when appropriate. Glad your DZ kicks ass. I will totally come visit when my bank account stops telling me to fuck off.

[BMAC615 205]

21 hours ago, OrphanBlue said:

Depends entirely on your definition of "terrible". My training was USPA to the absolute letter, student gear was some of the best I've ever come across, instructors were trained by, literally, one of the best of the best (and it showed) and I'm still not an "Incidents" thread. Just wish I hadn't been snowed with all of the "Sky Family" bullshit. And some other stuff. I'll get to all that if/when appropriate. Glad your DZ kicks ass. I will totally come visit when my bank account stops telling me to fuck off.

DZs are sky families the way strippers are your girlfriend.

[OrphanBlue 39]

5 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

DZs are sky families the way strippers are your girlfriend.

Yeah, maybe. But then again, I've had a stripper girlfriend. So yeah, maybe.

[chuckakers 370]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:00 PM, BMAC615 said:

DZs are sky families the way strippers are your girlfriend.

Without explanation that is a completely irrelevant statement.

[sfzombie13 307]

no, that statement stands by itself, no explanation needed.  it's not right, but it's not wrong.  i married a stripper once.

[rjklein4470 23]

I would like to make a point that I think is overlooked in AFF.  

For the most part AFF instructors have a lot of experience skydiving, and most of them jump small cross braced canopies, and why wouldn't you they are fun to fly.  

However

I feel like the students would do better if the instructors were jumping canopies that they could slow down and take the student from free fall to canopy pilot.  Show the student the pattern, make the student find your canopy in the air and do a find a follow type pattern.  

I was taught skydiving by static line, and we learned how to fly the canopy first, and then free fall was slowly added.  As I remember on the freefall skydives I found my instructors canopy very fast and it helped me relax and learn all the way to the ground.  

[lyosha 46]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:00 PM, BMAC615 said:

DZs are sky families the way strippers are your girlfriend.

Having been to a few places some DZs are like that, and some are family. Each DZ has it's own culture.

[chuckakers 370]

1 hour ago, rjklein4470 said:

...and most of them jump small cross braced canopies....

Not true. I travel extensively and see AFF instructors jumping a variety of canopy types and sizes.

[OrphanBlue 39]

3 hours ago, rjklein4470 said:

I was taught skydiving by static line, and we learned how to fly the canopy first, and then free fall was slowly added.

This makes so damn much sense that there's absolutely no wonder why it's been phased out. 

 

3 hours ago, rjklein4470 said:

For the most part AFF instructors have a lot of experience skydiving, and most of them jump small cross braced canopies

Spent a cup of coffee on the old YooToob and this only proved to be true during ~96% of filmed instructor openings for vids including "AFF" in the title. 

[riggerrob 558]

3 hours ago, OrphanBlue said:

This makes so damn much sense that there's absolutely no wonder why it's been phased out. 

 

Spent a cup of coffee on the old YooToob and this only proved to be true during ~96% of filmed instructor openings for vids including "AFF" in the title. 

That graduated learning method made more sense when we flew piston-pounding Cessnas that struggled to climb above 7,000 feet on a hot, hazy August day. It has been phased out because turbine-engined airplanes only like to make a single pass at 13,000 feet.

Slowing down and re-configuring (e.g. lowering wing flaps) is considered too much of a nuisance by DZs that operate big airplanes. Just look at the couple of solo jumpers who exited low and hit the horizontal tails of King Airs at Lodi.

Many CSPA DZs still use a graduated, stepped syllabus to teach students. They start with a tandem then do an IAD or three. Perhaps a few minutes in a wind tunnel, then a half-dozen jumps with PFF Instructors and a few more jumps with coaches to complete their A Certificate. No single training method is best, they are just best at different stages of the learning process.

[OrphanBlue 39]

18 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

That graduated learning method made more sense when we flew piston-pounding Cessnas

I totally get why training methods evolve. It'd be asanine if they didn't. I've just never gotten a straight answer as to why a canopy course is required for a B-lic (instead of A) under the USPA. Tunnel time is encouraged before AFF and body flight skills (or lack there of) are what wash a student out of AFF. Seems sort of, what's the word, backward? They are, after all, a Parachuting Association. Body flight never had the caveat of "try to avoid trees and buildings", you know?

[riggerrob 558]

Dear Orphan Blue, 

Ideally skydivers would get an additional block of canopy instruction before they fly every new canopy and before they write the exam for the next license. That block of instruction should start with BillVon's list of "things to know before you down-size" including sign-offs by senior instructors, canopy coaches or S&TAs simply to keep overly-ambitious jumpers honest.

Canopy skills are complex and perishable and change with every different canopy, ergo we need more formal instruction at every level.

[OrphanBlue 39]

7 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Ideally skydivers would get an additional block of canopy instruction before they fly every new canopy and before they write the exam for the next license. That block of instruction should start with BillVon's list of "things to know before you down-size" including sign-offs by senior instructors, canopy coaches or S&TAs simply to keep overly-ambitious jumpers honest.

Canopy skills are complex and perishable and change with every different canopy, ergo we need more formal instruction at every level.

Mods, please pin ^THIS^ atop everywhere that contains information for anyone who wants to strap a rig on and do this dumb and wonderful shit. Ladies and Gentlemen, good night, and good luck.

[Bluhdow 31]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:00 PM, BMAC615 said:

DZs are sky families the way strippers are your girlfriend.

Hahahaha 100%!

Best post in the thread. 

[earth2eric 12]

YouTube, Instagram, and GoPro has changed the sport. Now everyone and their mother wants to sign up for AFF. It’s way to easy to become an instructor and the standards are very low. Time and time again I see people who can barely belly fly getting signed off for their AFF rating. The word “experienced” is thrown around far too easy. The drive to become cool, popular, and “experienced” is blinding the community from who is actually talented. Dropzones are growing, which means they need instructors. Unfortunately money is now more important than training and safety. Can’t exit stable on your belly? Here’s your rating! Can’t land your sport canopy for shit? Here’s a passenger! Can’t fly on your belly? Here’s a student! Don’t understand the basics of canopy flight and emergency procedures? You’d be a great AFFI! The skydiving training sector is thrown together and sloppy, rushed and incomplete. Kids are getting their license, traveling to other dropzone and smashing into the ground. Elliptical and crossbrace canopies are being put into containers of skydivers who hook it low and have zero accuracy. STA program needs a revamp, Examiners need to be more strict, and incident reporting needs to become mandatory to identify trends of instructors who shouldn’t be rated either due to lack of skill or have the 5 hazardous attitudes when taking customers. I love skydiving, but the safety culture in skydiving is going downhill and fast. 

[SkydiverNigel 1]

On 10/4/2022 at 3:01 AM, OrphanBlue said:

"You know what I call AFF? Accelerated Death. We tell these folks they can fly and never give them the proper amount of time to truly digest the inconvenience of dying. If they could they'd likely slow down and learn a bit more than wave, arch, reach, pull."

                           ~Uncle Moe, on AFF

         

Naah, not even close. The quality of jumper training today, mostly AFF, is head and shoulders above the highly variable S/L FJCs of yore. Your last sentence makes me wonder about your familiarity with todays FJCs, by any method....

[earth2eric 12]

9 minutes ago, SkydiverNigel said:

Naah, not even close. The quality of jumper training today, mostly AFF, is head and shoulders above the highly variable S/L FJCs of yore. Your last sentence makes me wonder about your familiarity with todays FJCs, by any method....

Todays FJCS might have great m subject matter. But it doesn’t mean they are taught well. And the standard “show up, get blasted with a bunch of info over 4-5 hours and jump method” isn’t the best way. And then the “rush you onto a jump because I have a video or tandem to do and I don’t get paid enough for this”  attitude means the students aren’t receiving the info over a period of time either. I’ve seen so many A license check dives get posted where the student is flying like crap or backsliding all over the sky and the instructor goes “my student did so good!” Shoot, one of my students didn’t finish in time for the season end and went to another well established dropzone. They flew from upwind to downwind, cut people off in the pattern and landed downwind on their check dive and was passed. I’m sorry but if you were training to be a pilot and flew the wrong pattern do you think they examiner would give you a pilots license? Not a chance! 

[OrphanBlue 39]

1 hour ago, SkydiverNigel said:

Your last sentence makes me wonder about your familiarity with todays FJCs, by any method

Your last post leaves no doubt you have no idea who I was quoting. It was...

 

On 10/5/2022 at 6:51 PM, kleggo said:

"uncle moe" a very early AFF instructor

Like, really early. I knows my history. Come join me.