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georgiaboy

military jumper going civilian

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Hey, so I have about 200 freefall jumps and they are all with the military. I used my issued rig which has 193 lightning in it. I am going to start jumping at civilian dropzones on weekends and will need my own rig. I honestly have no idea what container or canopy to get because I just use what uncle sam gives me. I think I will want to get a little bit smaller canopy and something that is easier to pack than the lighting but still flies decently fast. I have saved plenty of money so I was thinking about getting a new container and a used canopy.Any guidance would be great! I am 6' and 178lbs.

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I would definitely go with a wings container. Not only are they awesome containers but you should be able to get 40% off of a brand new one direct from the factory with a military discount. As for the canopy, I don't know anything about the lightning but you may be able to test a few out at a local dz to get an idea, depending on what they have. You can also demo different mains through the manufacturers before you buy. I personally like the Sabre 2 but it's all personal preference.
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Where are you planning on jumping? I would hit your local DZ before buying anything. You're going to have to go through AFF so use their equipment till you get your license. By then you will probably have had plenty of time to discuss with your instructors the best rig for you.

Don't choose a canopy based on how easy it is to pack, cause a velo 84 is going to be much easier to pack than a sabre 2 170 but might kill you as well.

Good luck.

And if you're from GA make sure you go to the St Patricks day boogie in Fitzgerald in March.B|

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What makes the Wings container so awesome? That deal sounds pretty amazing though. I completed AFF with the military (lucky me i know I got it for free). I doubt I will be able to try a lot of canopies out before purchasing one just because of my situation, so what dou like about that particular canopy

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Trafficdiver

You're going to have to go through AFF so use their equipment till you get your license.



Most DZ's that I know of will do a conversion jump or two before signing them off, no AFF required. Usually it's for HALO guys that are transitioning to BOC deployment but it sounds like the OP is used to sport gear already, so it would likely be just a checkout dive.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Wings discount applies only to the base price and not the options, you don`t end up saving that much cash. Most containers can be had for somewhat less than list price if you talk to a dealer. Wings are ok, but you get what you pay for. There are better built and better designed products available.
(I`m not slamming Sunrise, if you end up choosing Wings that`s fine too.)

At your level of experience a Sabre 2, Pilot, Safire2, or similar type canopy is the obvious choice. A 170 would likely be a reasonable place to start. You reserve needs to be at least this size as well.

Your best bet is to start hanging around a friendly civilian DZ and start talking to people about canopies and gear. It sounds like your gear knowledge needs to catch up with your jump experience. Uncle Sam taught you what he needed you to know for him, now you have to go out and fill in the gaps.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Try a Silhouette. It's considered an intermediate canopy so appropriate for your jump numbers, depending on how you wing load it. It's a hybrid ZP/F111 which makes packing it much less painful. It's been my canopy of choice for many years.

Also, talk to the DZ about getting your license requirements signed off. You should be qualified for a B, depending on what training you've completed already.

D
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Thank you for serving.
First thing you should consider is to never listen to advice on this website. Everyone here probably has good intentions but most of us lack the responsibility, accountability and knowledge to dispense actionable advice. in other words...we are a bunch of idiots who generally have no idea what we are talking about.
If you are going to jump at a civilian dropzone then the DZO, S&TA and rigger all have a large incentive to make sure you are safe and happy. They wants you to be happy because that means you will spend more money and they want you to be safe because the paperwork and bad press after an accident are a headache.
So call up your local dropzone and jump. Ask them to watch your landings and canopy flight. Sign up for a canopy piloting course. Brian Germain travels to a bunch of Dropzones, but any large DZ has a canopy piloting coach these days.
But most importantly...do not listen to advice on the internet.

On a side note about Wings (not directed at the OP, just in general) I have put about 600 jumps on my Wings container. It's not that good. I can see several issues.
1)The riser covers suck. It took me a while to figure out how to pack it without a toggle creeping out.
2)The reserve flap is just not designed correctly. I did the service bulletin to make the flap longer so that it does not pop out anymore when I freefly. The reserve pilot chute fabric is sometimes visible.
3) The main tray closing system is not bad but the grommets never line up quite straight for me. You do get decent pin and bridle protection.
There are few more nit picky things but they are mostly due to my lack of skill and not a design issue.

Good luck
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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.....

On a side note about Wings (not directed at the OP, just in general) I have put about 600 jumps on my Wings container. It's not that good. I can see several issues.
1)The riser covers suck. It took me a while to figure out how to pack it without a toggle creeping out.
2)The reserve flap is just not designed correctly. I did the service bulletin to make the flap longer so that it does not pop out anymore when I freefly. The reserve pilot chute fabric is sometimes visible.
......
There are few more nit picky things but they are mostly due to my lack of skill and not a design issue.

Good luck
...........................................

Hire a better rigger, one who understands the finer points of packing Wings reserves.

Returning to the original poster ... when you chat up the local civilian rigger, ask him/her which rigs he/she prefers packing. The more your local rigger likes a particular harness/container, the quicker and neater the service.
.....
Flip side, a DZO told his girlfriend "If you buy a brand X container you will have to ship it out of province/state for repacks."
Hah!
Hah!

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georgiaboy

Hey, so I have about 200 freefall jumps and they are all with the military. I used my issued rig which has 193 lightning in it. I am going to start jumping at civilian dropzones on weekends and will need my own rig. I honestly have no idea what container or canopy to get because I just use what uncle sam gives me. I think I will want to get a little bit smaller canopy and something that is easier to pack than the lighting but still flies decently fast. I have saved plenty of money so I was thinking about getting a new container and a used canopy.Any guidance would be great! I am 6' and 178lbs.



I will go at this a bit different from others.

Number one.. for heavens sake.. save some money and buy used gear. Its the end of the season for most people and rigs will be showin up on the used market for the next few months. Stick with something in the 1.0 to 1 size for a reserve.. but buy a good reserve PD or Precision etc... and at 6' 178... add 25 pounds to that for your gear.. and THAT is the size you should be jumping for a reserve... When you are using your last chance over perhaps not the most ideal location to be landing.. don't skimp on the size... you may need it. Make sure the rig FITS.... that will annoy you more than anything if it is ill fitting.

That opens up a lot of options for a main.. as stated the Sabre 2 or one of the others in the correct size... not how "speedy" it is, is what will keep you jumping.. and not getting injured. Most containers will handle one downsize so avail yourself of that.

Think of this first rig as your backup rig.. that you can hold onto for a while.. as a spare should you need it. And be sure to look for a Cypress2 in it.. that is in date but not new. Have the rig checked out by a good rigger... otherwise no deal. Talk with people at your DZ... get out to other DZ's around... and hit a few of the boogies where they have demo canopies. They will be happy to hook you up with a canopy in your container.

Once you get all of that dialed in... THEN you are ready to buy a nice shiny new rig... AFTER you have seen what is out there.. but definitely get out and about and see for yourself.. and talk with people, what they like about their rig.. and what they despise on their rig.

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Why did Uncle Sam hang you under a Lightning?
Were you on a canopy formation team?
If you want to continue doing canopy formations, you will need to shop around because only a few DZ have enough skilled jumpers to put together CF teams.

OTOH if you are mainly interested in solo jumping there are dozens of canopies that open softer, glide flatter and land softer than Lightnings. You might want to look a Triathlons first because they have a familiar 7-cell planform but are much more forgiving on landing.

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gowlerk

Wings discount applies only to the base price and not the options, you don`t end up saving that much cash. Most containers can be had for somewhat less than list price if you talk to a dealer. Wings are ok, but you get what you pay for. There are better built and better designed products available.
(I`m not slamming Sunrise, if you end up choosing Wings that`s fine too.)



Isn't saving money the same no matter how it's done? I got 50% off the base price on my container from Wings which knocked a good 1k off the price. Got 1K knocked off then loaded it up with 1K worth of options. I see that as a huge savings because without it I wouldn't of been able to get the type of container I did with the options. I'm pretty sure the OP won't have a problem getting some sort of discount with whoever the OP goes with being in the military.

To be exact... I saved 1,075 off the base price. My final price came to 2,045.95 which would of been 3,045.95. I consider that a hell of a savings whether it was on the base price or not.

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rohicks

***Wings discount applies only to the base price and not the options, you don`t end up saving that much cash. Most containers can be had for somewhat less than list price if you talk to a dealer. Wings are ok, but you get what you pay for. There are better built and better designed products available.
(I`m not slamming Sunrise, if you end up choosing Wings that`s fine too.)



Isn't saving money the same no matter how it's done? I got 50% off the base price on my container from Wings which knocked a good 1k off the price. Got 1K knocked off then loaded it up with 1K worth of options. I see that as a huge savings because without it I wouldn't of been able to get the type of container I did with the options. I'm pretty sure the OP won't have a problem getting some sort of discount with whoever the OP goes with being in the military.

To be exact... I saved 1,075 off the base price. My final price came to 2,045.95 which would of been 3,045.95. I consider that a hell of a savings whether it was on the base price or not.

The point is that a loaded V3, Talon, Javelin, Icon ect with go for a list price of around $3000. No one pays that much for a Wings. Almost no one pays list for any container, but available discounts aren`t usually that high. In the end you got a $2400 container for $2045. It`s still a good deal, but not as good as you think.

No one should buy a container without checking out what is available and seeing the products up close with someone who know all the features and drawbacks.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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decompresion



On a side note about Wings (not directed at the OP, just in general) I have put about 600 jumps on my Wings container. It's not that good. I can see several issues.
1)The riser covers suck. It took me a while to figure out how to pack it without a toggle creeping out.
2)The reserve flap is just not designed correctly. I did the service bulletin to make the flap longer so that it does not pop out anymore when I freefly. The reserve pilot chute fabric is sometimes visible.
3) The main tray closing system is not bad but the grommets never line up quite straight for me. You do get decent pin and bridle protection.
There are few more nit picky things but they are mostly due to my lack of skill and not a design issue.

Good luck



I don't think your experience is typical. I have had exactly none of the issues you mentioned. I have talked with other jumpers with wings rigs and haven't heard any complaints from any of them. I suppose ymmv
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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To the OP: many of the manufacturers offer a military discount - might be a good idea to give each a ring and see what the deal is. Some are better than others. Can't hurt anyway.

Also - email dealers and ask for a quote...email a few and see what the story is and compare. Most rigs are pretty comparable on features, price etc. Some of the more popular "extras" (skyhook, magnetic riser covers) will narrow the field a bit. Just do what everyone else does a spend time at work fucking around with the container design / coloring programs on each manfu.website. Figure out what you want and then figure out more specific questions - options, closing loop location etc.

The time between order and delivery for most places is roughly similar - except for UPT which is atrocious. Mine will clock in at 40+ weeks... Though I already have a rig so I really didn't care.

I bought everything new. If I had to do it over again I still would have purchased a new container but stuck used nylon inside. Even then I've put 700ish jumps on it in 2.5 years so it hasn't been too bad. It's your money...figure out how you want to spend it....

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gowlerk

The point is that a loaded V3, Talon, Javelin, Icon ect with go for a list price of around $3000. No one pays that much for a Wings. Almost no one pays list for any container, but available discounts aren`t usually that high. In the end you got a $2400 container for $2045. It`s still a good deal, but not as good as you think.

No one should buy a container without checking out what is available and seeing the products up close with someone who know all the features and drawbacks.


The point I was making was that savings is savings. I personally don't care how it's done, or in the manner in which it's applied to the product, or how much. I'll take it and be grateful for it. B|

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georgiaboy

Hey, so I have about 200 freefall jumps and they are all with the military. I used my issued rig which has 193 lightning in it. I am going to start jumping at civilian dropzones on weekends and will need my own rig. I honestly have no idea what container or canopy to get because I just use what uncle sam gives me. I think I will want to get a little bit smaller canopy and something that is easier to pack than the lighting but still flies decently fast. I have saved plenty of money so I was thinking about getting a new container and a used canopy.Any guidance would be great! I am 6' and 178lbs.



Take it slow on the new gear, and keep your finances to your self.

A lot of G.I.s coming back from the sand/rock pile have lots cash. Don't waste it, what someone else said about the end of the season is near. Good time to chill and lurk the used gear.

Review the incident reports for the SOS that's getting people seriously injuried. Pay attention to wing loading, flying a pattern etc.

The sky isn't going anywhere, no sweat G.I. you can rent gear for a while.

Thank you for doing what you had to do.:)
One Jump Wonder

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I'm a military jumper as well and was doing the same thing a couple years ago. I bought a Wings because of the discount, and I'm now on my second one. Go for it. The discount is worth it, but quality as well. I jump a Javelin with a spectre 170 at work and I don't notice the differences between containers. As far as canopy goes demo everything you can. Call the makers and they are always happy to help. If you cant do that buy used canopies and put a few jumps on them. If you don't like it then sell it, you almost always break even. I would buy based on the current performance and size of what you jump at work though.

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As already mentioned, most manufacturers offer discounts to military members. They don't always advertise this but a simple e-mail to them will confirm it. I contacted Sunpath awhile back and they offer an excellent discount before options. Every container on the market has pros and cons. I highly recommend you don't make a puchase decision based solely on the best discount. I personnaly chose the container that I felt was the best for me regardless of cost, and enquired about the discount after the fact. If you don't see rapid downsizing in your future, a container is a long term purchase, so cost differences are negligible in the grand scheme of things. For what it's worth, I chose a Javelin and have nearly a decade jumping it. Absolutely no regrets and I'm looking at a second one so I can do "back to backs" when I'm coaching.

For canopy choice - demo, demo, demo. I prefer PD canopies, and they offer a canopy for all flying styles or needs with a proven track record. But they aren't the only manufacturer. Hit a few boogies where manufacturers have demos available. PD is usually at Z-hills over X-mass. DZs will advertise manufacturers offering demos during boogies.

The key here is that everyone has an opinion, and it is usually based on their personal experience which may or may not be limited. Don't rush your purchases. Decide what YOU like, and what meets YOUR needs.
When making the decision to downsize: It's your life, don't spend it all on one canopy

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Buy used gear for sure but have it checked out by a rigger first. Options you want on your container like skyhook, RSL, etc are also important. Whether or not you want a 7 or 9 cell canopy and what size reserve is also something you need to ponder. Research, research, research bud, getting personal preference from local jumpers and why they feel that way is invaluable. finding a rig that is sized properly and whether or not it is freefly friendly or not. If some of these terms are lost on you then you really need to take some more time to learn about sport rigs to make sure you end up with one that allows you to do the kinds of things you want to learn or do.

RLTW
Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

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I'm in the same exact spot as you and here is what I have been doing and some advice I've received from others at the DZ:

-Try out as much as you can. I've been renting at the local DZ for a while trying different containers, canopies, sizes, options, etc... This has given me a good idea to base my decisions on. Testing different canopies at boogies is a good idea as well.

-Talk to the riggers. What issues do they see with different containers and canopies? What things do they have to repair and how often? Who complains about their gear and why? What gear seems to hold up to abuse well? What do they prefer to pack & why?

-What does the DZ use for student gear? This gives you an idea of what is "grunt proof" and very user friendly and able to fit a broad range of people.

-What do most of the jumpers in your ability at that DZ use? Are they all using the same gear because of a push from the mfg/pro shop or because it is good gear? What gear do they sell off and what do they hold onto?

-What gear do you intend to use the longest? I agree with getting a new container and a used canopy. I can use a great container for years while I go through several canopies (within the container's size allowance) or change them according to my needs.

-Dont be in a rush to downsize canopies. I won't regurgitate what has already been stated on here many times (a quick seach will give you tons of info). I've learned that the urge to downsize is always there. However, being able to fly a certain sized canopy on a good day and when things aren't as good are two different things with a potentially deadly outcome. I haven't gained anything that significant from downsizing that is worth dying for.

-It seems that the "you get what you pay for" axiom applies to skydiving gear. I've seen almost everyone that has bought cheap gear end up getting something better very shortly afterwards. The ones that haven't aren't at the DZ very often.

I know I'm not nearly qualified to talk about specific gear as I'm not experienced enough and I have no idea what YOUR needs are. The above is just some advice I've been given from others and what I've used to make better purchases.
<2> RLTW

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decompresion


First thing you should consider is to never listen to advice on this website. Everyone here probably has good intentions but most of us lack the responsibility, accountability and knowledge to dispense actionable advice. in other words...we are a bunch of idiots who generally have no idea what we are talking about.

Nice caveat, but I don't think ALL of us are have no idea what we're talking about. I've worked with a few students in my day. :P:D

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