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Hawkins121

Is there enough training/practice on how to PLF in the average AFF ground course?

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No, I don't think there is enough time spent on PLFs. I think part of this is that students are working on PLFs on concrete or a piece of carpet tossed over concrete. It'd be cool if a DZ would pick up a couple of old gymnastic tumbling mats from the local gym (just duct tape the holes) and teach students on that. They'll be able to practice longer because when they make a mistake (and they will), they'll know it, but it won't hurt as much, so they won't hesitate to try it again, and they'll put more energy into it instead of just falling over because they're afraid to get hurt. I know my karate students learned breakfalls about ten times faster after we got mats, just because they're not as afraid of getting hurt on hard ground.

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I don't feel that i need to spend hours training for a PLF for new students. all I'm trying to do is get them to understand how its done and have them practice a few times. for the most part when a person does break an ankle, leg or arm, it's because of the lack of canopy skills. they pull down on one toggel further then the other then look in the direction of the turn. then freak out and try to stop the fall with either their hand or one leg even though they have been trained on the PLF. FLY the canopy to the ground>:(.... Look forward and if you find that your canopy is starting to dip to one side correct it to keep your canopy over your head. Oh ya keep your legs together..
No matter how much you train someone on the ground about doing a PLF, everyone will react to a situation differently.
for me with my canopy, if i find that i am not going to land very well i find doing a front tumble role works well as long as I'm not wearing a camera. Plus the everyone loves to see the staff at the DZ mess up some times.:)


The world is full of willing people, some willing to work, the rest willing to let them.

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I went through multiple SL and AFF courses and found there to be more PLF training on the SL ones. Probably because the instructors had more time to spend on that portion of the jump.

There's so much to pack into a single 7-8 hour first jump course for AFF that it's hard to cover everything with as much attention as it should get.

PLF practice might be something that could be added to safety day. You could even rent some matts for the day.

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There's so much to pack into a single 7-8 hour first jump course for AFF that it's hard to cover everything with as much attention as it should get.



How many first jump courses have you taught?

Sadly if that is such the case, there probably is too many students in the FJC or the Instructor needs better skills in teaching. [:/]
No student should board an airplane uniformed, or not given every opportunity to practice what they were instructed on during the FJC.
Students should skydive when they say they are ready to skydive and no sooner.


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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How many first jump courses have you taught?

Sadly if that is such the case, there probably is too many students in the FJC or the Instructor needs better skills in teaching. [:/]
No student should board an airplane uniformed, or not given every opportunity to practice what they were instructed on during the FJC.
Students should skydive when they say they are ready to skydive and no sooner.



Who said anything about uninformed? 6 hours of canopy instruction is better than 2, but you can't do that in a FJC. 6 hours of covering mals would be better than 2, but again you can't do that.

How many hours long are your first jump courses? Now don't tell me if you didn't double it, you wouldn't have better trained students.

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How many hours long are your first jump courses? Now don't tell me if you didn't double it, you wouldn't have better trained students.



Doubling it may help some students that dont pick it up the way you are teaching them, but skydiving isn't rocket science. And if this were the case, the FJC could be ran over a couple of days. The student does not need to jump the same day as he is taught the FJC.

My private course is alittle different. I only take on one student at a time so my focus is directly on them. Also doing 2 tandems before we go into the student gear training gives them the opportunity understand how a their body movements in the air effects their stability, and it also gives them some knowledge of canopy control and landing patterns.
Moving along through the training, at the students learning capability, is the best for the students skydiving progression, but unfortunatly some DZ's would rather push quantity rather then quality.....


Be safe
Ed
www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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How many hours long are your first jump courses? Now don't tell me if you didn't double it, you wouldn't have better trained students.



Anywhere from 4 to 8 hours, depending on the size of the class. Is another 8 hours feasible? I don't think so, but the FJC is the initial course in building a foundation for your training. When a student returns we spend additional time preparing them and reviewing EPs, and in a lot of instances PLFs.

After the FJC I expect students to practice on their own, doing the required book work and review EPs. One that does not take the time to prepare probably shouldn't be skydiving anyway.

You should sit through an FJC. You might even have a different opinion.

BTW, Ed was my JM on a couple of AFFs.

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You should sit through an FJC. You might even have a different opinion.



I was a student for 2 SL FJC's and 3 AFF ones. My comment was that in the static line FJC's there was a lot more time spent on PLFs than my AFF courses. I was supposing that that was due to my SL FJC's having less to deal with, training-wise.

But who knows, maybe it was because the canopies where I did my SL jumps were old worn out Mantas and Falcons and my instructors knew I'd be pounding it into the ground no matter how much I flared.

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I'm somewhat disapointed that the title to this thread is that somehow other people are more responsible for your skydive other than you yourself.

Just don't do it. Do not jump.

It will settle a world of problems that way. Break you ass walking into Walmart and then sue them instead.

I will give you credit that in the 4th paragraph, you mention that you are retarded. j/k

If you want to or any other jumper wants to, spend the afternoons off the DZ jumping off the roof of your shed in the backyard or another suitable vantage point and practice your PLF' landings. I say Go for it. For my own piece of mind I've done all that it takes to make my personal skydives safer.

When I pound in, I'll have no one to blame but myself.

Remember the three P's

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.

When I pound in, I'll have no one to blame but myself.



No shit...

But wouldnt it be nice if you knew what to do if you flared to high or to low?

christ.

My point was people do not fully understand the importance of the PLF. Which is why you see all these people healing from an incident when they flared to high or to low.....

I have seen a canopy fold up at 50 ft or so... The guy under canopy was a paratrooper and he PLF'ed... He got up cursing.. I carried his ruck because the side he landed on was pretty banged up but he was ok.

Most people flare at 10ft and too often break something they could have prevented with a decent PLF. I was simply asking how much time people spent in their ground course training on PLF's. Savvy?

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I don't mean to be contentious, I truly don't.

Yes it is important. Many things are important. Great weight should be given to all that is instructed and mentioned by an instructor. Many things are mentioned and discussed over and over again by instructors. If you feel strongly that an area is being overlooked bring it to the direct attention of an instructor in person. Discuss it further. Discussing it on a website is not nearly as important as direct conversation and instruction.

Many things are disregarded over and over again also.

What I can respect is direct responsibility for ones own actions. That was a point that seemed to me as being overlooked. I truly do not mean to offend anyone.

I'm often times pointed and direct... to a fault.

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*note i have not close to enough jumps to be say this, but i will anyways*

during AFF, i 'knew' what a plf was. but didnt spend too much timje on it. We concentrated more on what to do in the air/ canopy control. personally, i much rather have more hours training on what to do in emergencies, and identifying pictures of malfunctions and practice EPs with pictures than spend time doing plf. heck, it wasnt until i had my A and clowdy day taht i was pulled in with a FJC in harness training for practice *sinse i missed safety day* that i really learned how to do a textbook plf and dirt dived it. i think that 15 mins is plenty of time to go over plf / practice the concept.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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The PLF has the potential to be someone's most-used emergency procedure. Most people botch landings to one degree or another far more often than they have malfunctions.

Why not be prepared for them?

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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My point was people do not fully understand the importance of the PLF. Which is why you see all these people healing from an incident when they flared too high or too low.....



There may well be people who don't know how to do them or don't understand the importance.

But I think there are even more people who think PLFs are not cool. Their jumpsuit might get dirty or muddy. Their buddy will probably tease them when they get back to the hangar. I realize I've made this point already, but I'm going to make it again because I think *that's* the problem, especially for licensed jumpers, not lack of training.

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My point was people do not fully understand the importance of the PLF. Which is why you see all these people healing from an incident when they flared too high or too low.....



There may well be people who don't know how to do them or don't understand the importance.

But I think there are even more people who think PLFs are not cool. Their jumpsuit might get dirty or muddy. Their buddy will probably tease them when they get back to the hangar. I realize I've made this point already, but I'm going to make it again because I think *that's* the problem, especially for licensed jumpers, not lack of training.



If they are afraid to PLF because someone will bust their balls if they dont land standing up. then they do not understand the importance of it.

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As a New AFF student I am really suprized that I wasnt required to PLF my first few Jumps and then learn to flair. As a military Jumper I already knew how as I have done many. When I come in to land I am always prepared to PLF and also told on the radio to keep my feet and knees together.
On the flip side the round doesnt give you the stearing that the square does so it is easy to turn into the wind and flair but PLF's should be taught more. Balls of the feet, calf, thight buttocks push-up muscles. Im new so take me at a grain of salt but as for jumping t-10 Bravo's Ive got some experiance there also with doing PLF's on other than optimal surfaces.


I know ill go to heaven because ive spent my time in Hell.

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My question is how long did you guys focus on the PLF during your AFF ground training??

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I don't remember exactly how long I spent practicing PLFs. What I do remember; My instructor showed me how to do them off a picnic table. He watched me do a number of them and told me to continue practicing until he came back:ph34r:. I just kept PLFing off that picnic table until he came back and told me we were ready to go:D. It was a good thing too, 'cause I had a habit of flaring too early on that Manta. I can remember lil Carol running next to me in the landing area screaming "Hold it, hold it!" :D:D ..then came my PLF. I thought my landings were great! In hindsight, people were probably laughing at me, but I didn't give a shit. I was having a blast! Good times. B|

Do you think there should be more focus on it?
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That question is very dependent on the instructor, IMO.

Blue Skies!




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YES! There should be a lot more training on it!!

In my FJC, it was not even MENTIONED to us. :( Only because I'd read it in a book, I asked my instructor about it. She just said, "you just tuck and roll". We only practiced it because I specifically asked if we could. And even then she never demoed it or drilled it with us. We did it from a standing position exactly 1 time.

On jump #10 I had screwed up my pattern so I was coming in downwind the wrong way. I was scared and knew I didn't want to land on my butt (how I usually did), but I didn't know how to set myself up for a PLF. I basically plowed in face-first with my knees apart. I tore my MCL and was out for 8 months.

When I recovered, I had some more experienced people show me the proper PLF. I practiced it over and over again at home, and again at the dz. I jumped off tables, rocks, whatever. About a month later I screwed up my pattern again and was coming in on the runway. I said to myself "shit, this is gonna hurt." But I put my feet and knees together and as soon as I touched down I just instinctively tucked and went hips, shoulder, back, and rolled all the way around. I didn't have a scratch on me. :)
I have used the PLF several other times, and always when I land off. I wish I would've learned it right from the beginning, and I do hold it against them that they didn't feel it important enough to teach me. (However, in all fairness, I have spoken to other students at the school who said it was taught to them. Maybe she just forgot the day of my class. :S)

Anyway, I strongly believe that I would have many more tears and/or broken bones if I had not done PLF's. LEARN THEM, USE THEM -- THEY WORK!!

There. I said my piece. ;)
"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

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My question is how long did you guys focus on the PLF during your AFF ground training?? Do you think there should be more focus on it?



I work it till they get it...Then I work it some more....Then a little more...Then I refreash them before each jump.

Sound a bit much? Maybe.

But I think being able to perform a good crash landing is an often overlooked skill. I am thankful that my FJc included them...And then I had another 3 weeks to practice thanks to some sadistic Blackhats.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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