Improvements to helmet communication systems.... what is possible?

[Mike_wth 0]

Hello everybody,

I've been using a communication system in wingsuiting with my friends for several years now (Sena 10Rs in my case).
It really transformed training for us. We instantly doubled or even tripled the moves we did per jump.


It is quite sufficient for low speed flights, XRW and similar stuff.
However, the moment the airspeed (and therefore noise) goes up, the usability drops signifcantly.
If we go to have fun - which is usually quite fast and steep - it is hard to understand anything.

I did some sewing to place the speakers perfectly on top of my ear. There is no thick padding on top, just a very thin layer of fabric.
We also simplyfied the communication itself: Preferred single words, repeated three times. Microphones are properly placed. At high speeds this is still not good enough.
Friends of mine tested on of the latest Cardo systems. But it does not seem like a significant impovement. From the latest Senas I have also not heard about any improvement significant enough.

The goal: Significant improvements on the microphone or speaker quality. Improved range would be nice as well.

Ideas considered:

Active Noise Cancelling Speakers:
To my understanding, the technology requires a sealed environment (sealed speaker cups, or sealed in-ear headphones).
- A seald earcup like any of the ANC headphones out there will not fit into a helmet.
- Sealed in ear headphones do not equalize the airpressure

Bone conduction speakers:
- Cannot be integrated in the helmet, since the mount would need to press them against the head.
- Would require the use of earplugs to work in a lound environment

Throat Microphone:
- Cannot be integrated in the helmet
- Would require additional cables to the helmet
- Was tested by a friend (in the vertical tunnel) without success. (Vertical tunnel may be a more challanging environment, but the goal is to have something that works at high speeds)

Chinese communication systems:
The range of Sena/Cardo systems seems quite limited. I would consider it "good enough" to train acro in a two way. But could be improved.
I assume that some of the chinese units just do not care about western regulations and just dump much more energy into the radio unit to send a stronger signal.
However, when it comes to noise reduction I'd assume that the quality of these units will not keep up with Sena/Cardo.

Stuff Pilots use:
The headphones used by pilots work with great insulation supported by great ANC (for modern ones). I had some old ones on my head once (pre-ANC). Just the insulation does most of the trick.
There is a (still quite bulky) in-ear system from Bose. However, the issues described in the ANC chapter still apply.
The noise reduction of the microphone is actually done by the plane's hardware, not by the headphones themselves.


I discussed this topic with quite a lot of people in the wingsuit community.
I am a little stuck and just out of ideas.
Any solution should not come with cable chaos that has to be controlled every time we put on the helmet.
I need something user friendly enough, so my friends actually use it :-)

Any ideas, also weird stuff, are much appreciated. Just throw it in here, maybe we can figure something out.
 

[the.Legend 53]

Sena 10R is too old by modern standards because it supports only up to 4 intercoms. Newer models have this thing called Bluetooth Mesh that pairs way more devices, and does this dynamically so if someone gets out of range it doesn't break connection for other.  Cardo's PackTalk Slim is so far the most popular among people I know.

BTW chinese intercoms can't do that yet. In some other thread I posted about available models in more details:

Another reason why stick with Bluetooth is that you need something full-duplex, and none of walkie-talkies in reasonable price range can give that

 

How about trying latest helmets from Cookie or Tony? As far as I'm aware, they are a bit more aerodynamic, and G4 additionally padded so that might bring overall noise level.

By the way, top motorcycle helmets follow the same approach - to make them quieter make them more aerodynamic

 

Another simple trick that might work is simple battery-powered sound amplifier, albeit it wouldn't be the healthiest solution because you'd just be fighting loudness with even greater loudness.

That being said, what worked for me well in motorcycles is driving with earplugs you'd use in wind tunnel. They cancel wind noise just fine, bringing overall levels, and if you add an amplified sound output in speakers you may actually get good sound

Edited September 11, 2022 by the.Legend

[Mike_wth 0]

Hi!

thanks for your response!
I am aware of mesh. If I'd buy a new solution today, mesh would be on the list.
However, I am mostly looking for 2 way communication. So this falls under "nice to have".

I currently use a Skyhelmet, which - in my opinion - is the best choice available (a feature discussion / personal priorities would need a different threat).

A sound amplifier is a good idea, but I also agree with you, that this would not be a healty choice.
I placed the speakers without padding directly on top of my ears. I set them to max volume right before exit, simply because they are too loud. I don't want to hurt my ears more than reasonable.

 

5 hours ago, the.Legend said:

That being said, what worked for me well in motorcycles is driving with earplugs you'd use in wind tunnel. They cancel wind noise just fine, bringing overall levels, and if you add an amplified sound output in speakers you may actually get good sound

This is a point I cannot really imagine. The earplugs should reduce speaker and surrounding noise in the same way.
You really get a practial advantage by that?

Edited September 11, 2022 by Mike_wth

[BIGUN 1,042]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:00 PM, Mike_wth said:

Hello everybody,

I've been using a communication system in wingsuiting with my friends for several years now (Sena 10Rs in my case).
It really transformed training for us. We instantly doubled or even tripled the moves we did per jump.


It is quite sufficient for low speed flights, XRW and similar stuff.
However, the moment the airspeed (and therefore noise) goes up, the usability drops signifcantly.
If we go to have fun - which is usually quite fast and steep - it is hard to understand anything.

The issue is the helmets, not the Sena. Skydiving helmets haven't changed much. nor have they really been re-designed for wingsuit jumping with comms. Here is my suggestion as both a skydiver and biker (Shoei Helmet with Sena)

1. Try the newer Sena 50 r or s 

2. Place the speakers over your ear canal and use band-aids or some other tape to "build up" around the speaker to channel into your ear ANd to prevent wind noise.

3. Seal the helmet from air flow better.

4. Design a chin cup to reduce the air from flowing from under the helmet (Shoei's have that chin cup)

 

Hope this helps

  

[the.Legend 53]

9 hours ago, Mike_wth said:

This is a point I cannot really imagine. The earplugs should reduce speaker and surrounding noise in the same way.
You really get a practial advantage by that?

Earplugs reduce both sound pressure levels in the same way, yes. The point is that when you reduce everything then amplified loud speakers are no longer too loud and are healthy.

Let's say, for example

- Wind produces 100 dB noise

- Amplified speakers produce 110 dB output

If you put on the earplugs that reduce the sound pressure by, say, 60dB then you get 40dB of wind and 50dB of voice - which is all well within healthy limits, and if that's not enough you still have some room for small speakers amplification (sound pressure scale is exponential so you won't need much)

(I took just some ballpark figures to explain the idea)

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by the.Legend

[wmw999 2,114]

2 hours ago, the.Legend said:

Earplugs reduce both sound pressure levels in the same way, yes. The point is that when you reduce everything then amplified loud speakers are no longer too loud and are healthy.

I have noise-canceling earplugs for traveling, and it absolutely works this way. If they run out of juice, I have to turn the volume up significantly to continue to hear them.

Wendy P.

[mccordia 73]

We use the Sena 50S (mesh audio) which works great when combined with a protective helmet (G4 or TFX) due to the better isolated features of those.

Video / Video examples

We also tried the updated 50S HK (2022) units and find those actually having more issues with BG noise and slightly less volume compared to the 'old' unit with the same model number.

[Mike_wth 0]

 

On 9/12/2022 at 2:46 AM, BIGUN said:

The issue is the helmets, not the Sena. Skydiving helmets haven't changed much. nor have they really been re-designed for wingsuit jumping with comms. Here is my suggestion as both a skydiver and biker (Shoei Helmet with Sena)

1. Try the newer Sena 50 r or s 

2. Place the speakers over your ear canal and use band-aids or some other tape to "build up" around the speaker to channel into your ear ANd to prevent wind noise.

3. Seal the helmet from air flow better.

4. Design a chin cup to reduce the air from flowing from under the helmet (Shoei's have that chin cup) 

(1) Maybe I should really upgrade the sena...
(2) I tried to build something like that. Even tried to replace the entire padding with something self-built. However, when I build something that really applies pressure around my ears to create some sort of seal, I have a hard time getting my head into the helmet without hurting my ears. I did consider using the padding of earmuffs. But these are made out of the leather-like material which does not breath (for obvious reasons). This however would be disgusting during summer.
On top of that, I did not find a way to get the speakers and the audibles in together, when I tried to build such a padding.
(3/4) I did consider this too. Super interesting that Shoei finally built something like that. I was looking for this for years. If I had still a bike, I would immediately buy one of these.
For skydiving however, our helmets are quite different. Motorcycle helmet have this big free space under the chin. That is simly a safety feature. They should be easy to take off in case of an accident.
This would not work in skydiving (e.g. sitfly). Therefore, our helmets close that gap already and provide fabric under the chin.
I know that some helmets (cookie) often leave a lot of space. My Skyhelmet is designed around the head. There is not really anything that could be filled up / streamlined.

 

@the.Legend
I will try that, thanks a lot!

 

@mccordia

Thanks a lot!
How do you deal with this little stand-off antenna of the Mesh-Senas? A friend told me, that the antenna needs to be up for the mesh to work. I imagine that would rip off quickly.
What is your experience regarding range (roughly)?
In 2-way flights that is usually not an issue. But I'd love to keep the connection up under canopy.

 

[mccordia 73]

Quote

How do you deal with this little stand-off antenna of the Mesh-Senas?

Ive never used the antenna up, always left it folded down, and we only use the mesh connection. Yesterday we jumped a cliff (Brento) and about 1.5 km away, with me on the ground and my partner 1.2 km up on the mountain, we had good reception without the antenna out.