Quit Saying the USA is a Democracy.

[Phil1111 587]

On 9/1/2022 at 11:27 AM, Slim King said:

The Delusion is that we are a Democracy ... We aren't .... Stop the psychological illusion...

OK so don't vote again. You won't be missed.

[billvon 1,675]

7 hours ago, Slim King said:

Complete balderdash!!!!!

Here is a list of the measures on the California ballot in 2020:

Proposition 14 (2020): Stem Cell Research    
Proposition 15 (2020): Commercial Property Taxes    
Proposition 17 (2020): Voting Rights for People on Parole    
Proposition 18 (2020): Voting Rights for 17-Year-Olds   
Proposition 19 (2020): Property Tax Transfers    
Proposition 20 (2020): Changes to Criminal Sentencing and Parole   
Proposition 21 (2020): Rent Control and Local Governments   
Proposition 22 (2020): App-Based Rideshare and Delivery Drivers    
Proposition 23 (2020): Kidney Dialysis Clinics   
Proposition 24 (2020): Expand Consumer Privacy Act    
Proposition 25 (2020): Bail Reform

Again, sorry about the facts.

[Slim King 29]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

OK so don't vote again. You won't be missed.

JUST WONDERING ABOUT YOUR CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT VOTING DOESN'T MAKE YOU A DEMOCRACY. MANY STYLES OF GOVERNMENT ALLOW VOTING. Sorry bout the caps .. my wicket stuck ...Btw .. More people are leaving California than ever before in the history of the USA ...Wonder why?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Slim King

[billvon 1,675]

14 minutes ago, Slim King said:

JUST WONDERING ABOUT YOUR CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT VOTING DOESN'T MAKE YOU A DEMOCRACY

VOTING ON BALLOT MEASURES IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

Let's see if that does it for you.

[Slim King 29]

10 minutes ago, billvon said:

VOTING ON BALLOT MEASURES IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

Let's see if that does it for you.

No one questioned weather we vote .. WE do ... Doesn't make us a democracy.

[wolfriverjoe 937]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

VOTING ON BALLOT MEASURES IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

Let's see if that does it for you.

Well, to be fair, it depends on the 'quality' of the voting.

Are multiple candidates allowed to run?
Are those candidates allowed to freely and openly express their views?
Is everyone allowed to vote?

Many places have 'elections' that are a long way from 'free and fair' (Russia and the former Iraq under Saddam come to mind).

Is the result of the vote respected by the sitting officeholders?

The 2020 Presidential election here in the US comes to mind on that one.

Keep in mind, in the 'old South', there were lots of elections.
But the Democrats had such a stranglehold on power, and minorities were effectively denied the right to vote, so that the elections were a LOOOOOOOONG way from 'free & fair'.

And in the 'new Republican United States', Republican dominated state legislatures are passing laws and installing 'election commissions' that will have the power to ignore actual voting results and declare whoever they want to be the 'winner'. 

You know, like Trump and the Trumpettes wanted to have happen back on Jan 6.

[SkyDekker 786]

A democracy is defined as:

“a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.”

Or

“Democracy (from Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to deliberate and decide legislation ("direct democracy"), or to choose governing officials to do so ("representative democracy").”

 

Never once is voting mentioned. Both definition above clearly show the US being a form of democracy. Arguing otherwise is stupid and shows an incredible lack of intelligence.

 

[jakee 838]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

JUST WONDERING ABOUT YOUR CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT VOTING DOESN'T MAKE YOU A DEMOCRACY. 

This is the definition of democracy in the dictionary which you just said you use.

1a: government by the people especially  : rule of the majority

b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Are you embarrassed yet?

 

[wmw999 1,567]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

This is the definition of democracy in the dictionary which you just said you use.

1a: government by the people especially  : rule of the majority

b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Are you embarrassed yet?

 

No one here has said that the US is a pure democracy. We have democratic aspects to our system, just as we have republocratic aspects to our system. Shouting does not, in fact, amplify the truthfulness of anything.

Wendy P.

[billvon 1,675]

4 hours ago, Slim King said:

No one questioned weather we vote .. WE do ... Doesn't make us a democracy.

Let's try again.  See if you have more luck with an even bigger font.

VOTING ON BALLOT MEASURES IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

 

 

Therefore we are a democracy.  Got that yet?

We also vote for representatives - so we are also a representative government.  We are governed by laws based on a founding document - so we are also a Constitutional republic.

[Baksteen 84]

~Ding~

Sorry, don't mind me. Just making some popcorn here.

[Slim King 29]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:54 AM, billvon said:

VOTING ON BALLOT MEASURES IS DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

Let's see if that does it for you.

No one questioned weather we vote .. WE do ... Doesn't make us a democracy. I'm glad I've cleared that up. The USA is not nor has ever been a Democracy. People who say it is are lying ... They are for Mob Rule.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Slim King

[Dr.SkyFall 8]

6 minutes ago, Slim King said:

No one questioned weather we vote .. WE do ... Doesn't make us a democracy. I'm glad I've cleared that up. The USA is not nor has ever been a Democracy. People who say it is are lying ... They are for Mob Rule.

Whats the difference between democracy and mob rule?

[billvon 1,675]

34 minutes ago, Slim King said:

No one questioned weather we vote .. WE do ... Doesn't make us a democracy. 

It actually does.  It is literally the definition.

You have a right to your own opinions, but you don't have a right to change the meaning of words when you get backed into a corner and are feeling desperate.

[lomcovak 0]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

It actually does.  It is literally the definition.

You have a right to your own opinions, but you don't have a right to change the meaning of words when you get backed into a corner and are feeling desperate.

Not it isn't, in the US it's not one person one vote due to the electoral college which has priority over the popular vote and which is intrinsically undemocratic. The electoral college gives voting power to acres of land over people, find a definition of democracy that says land can vote.

[wmw999 1,567]

2 minutes ago, lomcovak said:

Not it isn't, in the US it's not one person one vote due to the electoral college which has priority over the popular vote and which is intrinsically undemocratic. The electoral college gives voting power to acres of land over people, find a definition of democracy that says land can vote.

That's only in the case of the US President; pretty much everything else is by popular vote.

However, in most cases, the parties are the arbiters of who gets the money, which is who gets to actually have a chance when running.

Wendy P.

[lomcovak 0]

7 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

That's only in the case of the US President; pretty much everything else is by popular vote.

However, in most cases, the parties are the arbiters of who gets the money, which is who gets to actually have a chance when running.

Wendy P.

That is true but then there's the gerrymandering for gubernatorial and congressional seats. US democracy is like Trump's golf game. You can call it golf if it makes you happy but really it's just cheating.

[gowlerk 1,438]

1 minute ago, lomcovak said:

US democracy is like Trump's golf game. You can call it golf if it makes you happy but really it's just cheating.

I call it a quasi- or semi-democracy. I don't know if there are any true complete democracies of any significant size. I probably would not like living is one. 

[lomcovak 0]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I call it a quasi- or semi-democracy. I don't know if there are any true complete democracies of any significant size. I probably would not like living is one. 

I'm not saying any others are better. They might well be but I'm not saying that 

[billvon 1,675]

21 minutes ago, lomcovak said:

Not it isn't, in the US it's not one person one vote 

In ballot measures it absolutely is.  For most of our government it's representative where we vote for people who represent us.  (Which is also the definition of democracy.)

[lomcovak 0]

14 minutes ago, billvon said:

In ballot measures it absolutely is.  For most of our government it's representative where we vote for people who represent us.  (Which is also the definition of democracy.)

"Not it isn't, in the US it's not one person one vote due to the electoral college which has priority over the popular vote and which is intrinsically undemocratic."

Fixed.

You are correct, it is technically one person one vote as in the 2016 general election where Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump but still lost. The votes got counted but the votes didn't count. Don't you think a democracy requires both?

Edited September 7, 2022 by lomcovak
Adding....

[billvon 1,675]

53 minutes ago, lomcovak said:

"You are correct, it is technically one person one vote as in the 2016 general election where Clinton got 3 million more votes than Trump but still lost. The votes got counted but the votes didn't count. Don't you think a democracy requires both?

You are confusing ballot measures with the electoral college.  They are not the same thing.  

[lomcovak 0]

50 minutes ago, billvon said:

You are confusing ballot measures with the electoral college.  They are not the same thing.  

Well I'm often confused but we're discussing democracy and all I'm saying is that the US doesn't meet the definition of a democracy because although it does technically have one person one vote, that's ignored when deciding the result of a general election.

[billvon 1,675]

16 minutes ago, lomcovak said:

Well I'm often confused but we're discussing democracy and all I'm saying is that the US doesn't meet the definition of a democracy because although it does technically have one person one vote, that's ignored when deciding the result of a general election.

No, you are thinking of the electoral college.

Americans have an odd fixation on the president as if his election is the only thing that matters.  90% of the things that will affect your life will be decided via local/state government and they generally ARE one person, one vote - and the person with the most votes wins.  And 99% of the elections in the US work like that.

[mistercwood 256]

Just quietly, this probably is one of the dumbest arguments we've had in SC for a while.