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kvnhlstd

Hard Rear riser turn leads to spin

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Looking to get a answer on a canopy situation...
Sabre2 210 loaded at 1:14
Jump number 95

Jump went according to plan other than a rather long spot and my track taking me even further out. Pitched at 3500 and fully open in the saddle at 2900 ish. The opening had me 180 so after checking my surrounding airspace I initiated a rear riser turn to the right, the toggles were still stowed. The canopy turned about 80 degrees and proceed to put me into a diving spiral turn, I grabbed both rear risers and pulled hard and stopped the spin and flattened out the flight of the canopy. The spins burned off almost 800 feet quickly and I ended up off LZ landing just north east of the tunnel for the SDAZ reference point. Nice thing was I landed about 50 yds from a cut away of another jumper so I was able to get a ride in. Question... was the hard spin induced by my possibly stalling out the right rear of the canopy, already in a braked flight mode w/ stowed toggles??? or is it something else??? This happened one other time and I have jumped this canopy over 50 jumps now.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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Canopies respond different when brakes are set.
You should practice using risers when brakes are set.
I usually just make a harness turn, but then again my canopy rarely opens off heading,

Did you perhaps by mistake free one of the brakes?

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No chance... brakes were stowed. I had had a brake fire when jumping student rigs, this looked and acted like a brake fire but the brakes remained stowed until after I pulled both rear risers to get it out of the spiral spin and unstowed the toggles.
Thanks for the input and question though...
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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Ok.

You say you had a left off heading and pulled the right riser to correct it.
Then the canopy started to spin and dive, in which direction? Left or right?

And regarding the toggles, they can look like they are set but still be unset.
Especially if you stow the excess behind the riser, then it will look pretty much exactly the same.
(don't take this as it's a bad thing to stow the excess brakeline)


Sorry, reread the first post and see you had a 180. But that does not change my question

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I bought it used... the number told to me was a guesstimate, probably around 500 or so... so at least 555 by now. Had it inspected when I bought it. They told me a new line set would be in its future...
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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I open facing away from the LZ and started a right rear riser turn... I do stow all the excess line behind the riser in the line keeper. Both toggles looked stowed and I could feel the trim release when I pulled down on the toggles once I got the canopy flattened out.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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Right... started the turn then just dove in to a right hand spiral dive. I was thinking that maybe I just pulled to hard on the right rear riser and stalled out the right side of the canopy causing it to dive to the right???
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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I have a brand new Sabre 2 190, and it does a similar thing, steering toggles stowed, if you riser turn right, it turns right and dives hard same thing on the left. I wouldn't call it a spiral dive though, just a turn followed by a straight hard dive, and it seems that it just wants to keep diving until you dig it out on rears or toggles. If I'm honest, I've never held it in the dive long enough to see if it will come out on its own. When steering toggles are unstowed, riser turns are fine. I found out by playing with all my inputs when the canopy was new, did a few hop and pops from five as a few first dates with my new canopy. On jump two I practiced emergency avoidance procedures and surprise, huge diving turn. I did the same thing both rears and out she came. Now that I expect it, I will admit sometimes I just do it for fun, but if you really do need to avoid another jumper on opening, it does change direction and altitude rather aggressively.
Bad decisions make good stories!!

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Could most definitely be a trim problem. If your brake lines are to short the canopy will essentially be in a flare after opening. Very minimal forward speed creating minimal lift, yank on a rear riser and it will exaggerate the turn. Next time you jump it unstow your toggles and let them all the way up. Does the rear of the canopy look flared at all? Any crease or distortion and you can tell the brakes are to short. Look into getting the canopy re-lined and ask your rigger to add a few inches to the brake lines when he does. A 210 is big enough where you could almost jump it with toggles un stowed and not have any adverse effects. If your at skydive AZ they should be able to help you out. Seriously knowledgeable people

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jumplongisland

Could most definitely be a trim problem. If your brake lines are to short the canopy will essentially be in a flare after opening. Very minimal forward speed creating minimal lift, yank on a rear riser and it will exaggerate the turn. Next time you jump it unstow your toggles and let them all the way up. Does the rear of the canopy look flared at all? Any crease or distortion and you can tell the brakes are to short. Look into getting the canopy re-lined and ask your rigger to add a few inches to the brake lines when he does. A 210 is big enough where you could almost jump it with toggles un stowed and not have any adverse effects. If your at skydive AZ they should be able to help you out. Seriously knowledgeable people



What? They are both referring to when the brakes are stowed- so naturally there would be some brake applied on opening and then subsequently doing a rear riser turn.
From what they are describing it sounds as though maybe one side of the canopy stalled, similar to when you bury a toggle and hold it there on some canopies. I guess with the brake already partially applied it would increase the AoA of the wing?

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HUPRA


What? They are both referring to when the brakes are stowed- so naturally there would be some brake applied on opening and then subsequently doing a rear riser turn.
From what they are describing it sounds as though maybe one side of the canopy stalled, similar to when you bury a toggle and hold it there on some canopies. I guess with the brake already partially applied it would increase the AoA of the wing?



If the brake lines are shrunk above and below the brake setting then the partial brakes applied by stowing the toggles could be even deeper. Combine that with a deep riser application one on side and you can be stalling out one side of the canopy.

Said differently, if you have a fair amount of brakes being applied with toggles at full extension, then you are also going to have a deeper brake setting that engineered with the toggles set.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Did you move from a larger canopy, or a more square planform?

Maybe you are experiencing over steer. Certain canopies are more prone, generally speaking the more elliptical, the more oversteer. Same can generally be said about oversteer increasing as wing loading increases.

Maybe you are instead experiencing an induced turn. Some canopies are just more sensitive to harness and riser inputs, especially with the brakes stowed. With my Mamba 104 it is critical that I am even in the harness, otherwise it is off to the races from the unintended harness input.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Yup, sure did. Went from a Sabre 210 to my Sabre2 190. I really like everything about it, and realize that each canopy has its nuances, quirks and things to be aware of. I wouldn't consider it a problem, just thouht the OP might like to hear that someone else has noticed something similar. I am curious to hear if other Sabre2 owners have experienced the same thing.
Bad decisions make good stories!!

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Agreed... it sounds like we both had the same induced dive, though mine did start a slow spin as it dove. probably because I rode it out a little longer to see if it would self correct. I am going to have the lines looked at again and measured by the riggers at SDAZ. Probably going to have the lineset replaced anyway.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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I have found that some canopies have reduced directional stability when the brakes are still set. That is, they are more sensitive to starting to turn, and staying in a turn.

So for example one canopy comes out of a harness turn easily with brakes free, but with brakes set and in a spiral, it seems that it stays in a stable spiral even if the weight is balanced again.

But that tended to be on a couple smaller, higher loaded canopies. I haven't tried it out on enough canopies to know how universal that is or not; nor have I puzzled through the physics to try to explain it.

Still, there's a chance that that's similar to what you're seeing -- once in a spiralling turn with brakes set, it tends to stay in the turn without a quick recovery.

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Same on mine I assume. I took the Axis Flight canopy course and on the first hop we were told to check the slack and see at what point does the canopy change flight characteristics. It does fly true and straight.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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On serious note, certain canopies will do exactly what you described.

Most of them will stop on its own. After like 3,4,5 revolution, if you don't have patience to wait for it then grab the toggle and make things even.

Can you imagine having that spin plus line twist?

Sorry I was late, I was busy giving bad advices on the other threads.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

On serious note, certain canopies will do exactly what you described.

Most of them will stop on its own. After like 3,4,5 revolution, if you don't have patience to wait for it then grab the toggle and make things even.

Can you imagine having that spin plus line twist?

Sorry I was late, I was busy giving bad advices on the other threads.




Luv it... Thanks for the "serious" input. I think this weekend I need to do a late afternoon high pull and play some more with it... see how long it goes.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson

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kvnhlstd

***On serious note, certain canopies will do exactly what you described.

Most of them will stop on its own. After like 3,4,5 revolution, if you don't have patience to wait for it then grab the toggle and make things even.

Can you imagine having that spin plus line twist?

Sorry I was late, I was busy giving bad advices on the other threads.




Luv it... Thanks for the "serious" input. I think this weekend I need to do a late afternoon high pull and play some more with it... see how long it goes.

The boogie isn't the best time for high pulls. Lots of loads, sometimes parallel jumpruns.
Remster

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