To gouge or not to gouge

[JoeWeber 2,294]

Surely it's just a misunderstanding amongst friends. Today my Jet-A delivery came in 4% less per gallon than two weeks ago. What was interesting was the driver told me that their delivered price for gasoline was consistently 10-15¢ less per gallon than the stations, except lately. Lately it's consistently 70-75¢ less. That's a big chunk of a 5 buck gallon, bastards.

[Phil1111 908]

With gas prices at $5 a gallon, Biden tells oil companies to cut costs for Americans

Biden blasts oil refiners for record profits on pain at the pump

Tucker Carlson: The price of US gas now qualifies as a catastrophe in which he blames Biden just like Brent will do shortly.

So FOX defends big oil price gouging and the GOP blames the president. All just pandering to the base while the consumer is F*#ked. It plays well in midterms to blame gas prices on Biden. probably his age.

[billvon 2,380]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

So FOX defends big oil price gouging and the GOP blames the president. 

Price of gas is currently on its way down.  This presents a dilemma for all the vandals who have been plastering Biden stickers saying "I did that!" on gas pumps.  They may have to figure out how to get them off there toot sweet.

Or maybe add a second part to the sticker saying "I did that but I'm not doing this!"  Lot of words for such people tho.

[metalslug 31]

 If you buy a house for a million dollars and then sell it for 30% or 50% more the following year, does that make you a gouger ?  It's current market value. If consumers really want the oil price to come down then they could try using less of it. Of course it also wouldn't hurt the price if the US (or any capable country) were drilling for more of it.

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

 Of course it also wouldn't hurt the price if the US (or any capable country) were drilling for more of it.

That is fully within the control of the oil companies who are currently making out like bandits. They’d rather not do more work for the same amount of money when they can just create an artificial restriction instead.

This is just another reason why a purely capitalistic approach is unsustainable - both in this and your housing example.

[billvon 2,380]

5 hours ago, metalslug said:

 If you buy a house for a million dollars and then sell it for 30% or 50% more the following year, does that make you a gouger ?  

Good point.  The fault for higher house prices lies with the buyer, not the seller.  So high gas prices are due to clueless consumers.

Quote

Of course it also wouldn't hurt the price if the US (or any capable country) were drilling for more of it.

?? We are drilling so much that we export more than we import.   So clearly it's not a supply problem.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Good point.  The fault for higher house prices lies with the buyer, not the seller.  So high gas prices are due to clueless consumers.

?? We are drilling so much that we export more than we import.   So clearly it's not a supply problem.

Hi Bill,

As I continue to say, 'The American electorate is uninformed & prefers to stay that way.'

A GOP CongressCritter across the river in Washington state continues to run ads on why the high prices for gasoline is Biden's fault because he is causing the shortages.

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES!!!!!!!!

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,294]

7 hours ago, metalslug said:

 If you buy a house for a million dollars and then sell it for 30% or 50% more the following year, does that make you a gouger ?  It's current market value. If consumers really want the oil price to come down then they could try using less of it. Of course it also wouldn't hurt the price if the US (or any capable country) were drilling for more of it.

Come on, man, you could make the same point about a 1st grader's Guinea Pig. If she sells it in the 2nd grade for half again more she's not gouging she's just a kid selling a Guinea Pig for a profit. That's in no way similar to BillVon constraining the worldwide supply of guinea pigs to create an artificial shortage and raise wholesale prices. I wouldn't put it past him, who would, but it's not the same. 

[ryoder 1,380]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Come on, man, you could make the same point about a 1st grader's Guinea Pig. If she sells it in the 2nd grade for half again more she's not gouging she's just a kid selling a Guinea Pig for a profit. That's in no way similar to BillVon constraining the worldwide supply of guinea pigs to create an artificial shortage and raise wholesale prices. I wouldn't put it past him, who would, but it's not the same. 

I had always imagined Bill was in the business of buying/selling ducks.

[airdvr 197]

I got a bird I'll sell you

[metalslug 31]

21 hours ago, billvon said:

?? We are drilling so much that we export more than we import.   So clearly it's not a supply problem.

You're sure about that?  You might want to re-check the numbers since 2021.

To the OP; I maintain the term 'gouging' is this context is a little unfair when companies are merely trading at global market prices and I'm not convinced that governments are blameless in impacting supply (and hence price).  

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I sometimes wonder if gas companies have it somewhere in the back (or middle) of their minds that keeping prices high will also hurt the Democrats at the polls, and help Republicans who are more inclined towards giveaways for the fossil fuel industry and much more hostile towards competing renewables.

[billvon 2,380]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

You're sure about that? 

Yes.  In fact we are exporting record amounts, although FOX News is not carrying the news for some odd reason.

From Bloomberg:

===========================

US Exports Soar As World Works to Replace Russian Supplies

 

April 20, 2022 at 9:18 AM PDT

 

The U.S. exported the most oil and petroleum products in history last week as countries across the world work to replace Russian supplies in the wake of the war in Ukraine.   

Exports of U.S. crude and petroleum products surged to a weekly record of 10.6 million barrels a day during the week ending April 15, according to data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration. The country’s exports also outweighed its imports by the most ever in government data going back to 1990. 

===========================

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-20/u-s-oil-exports-soar-as-world-works-to-replace-russian-supplies

 

Quote

 I maintain the term 'gouging' is this context is a little unfair 

So what word would you use for it?  They have record amounts of oil and are exporting more than ever before.  They are keeping refinery capacity low to keep prices high.  Less refinery capacity = lower operating costs = more demand = higher profits.  Enron had this down to a science back in the 2000's.

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

To the OP; I maintain the term 'gouging' is this context is a little unfair when companies are merely trading at global market prices and I'm not convinced that governments are blameless in impacting supply (and hence price).  

You might want to go back and reread the OP. He wasn't talking about what you think he's talking about.

[gowlerk 1,902]

27 minutes ago, jakee said:

You might want to go back and reread the OP. He wasn't talking about what you think he's talking about.

Back to the original post. Gouge away. Take as much as you can from the skydivers and blame it on Biden.

[metalslug 31]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Yes.  In fact we are exporting record amounts, although FOX News is not carrying the news for some odd reason.

From Bloomberg:

===========================

US Exports Soar As World Works to Replace Russian Supplies

 

April 20, 2022 at 9:18 AM PDT

 

The U.S. exported the most oil and petroleum products...

Not so fast there, or you'll trip over the goalpost that you're moving (for some odd reason). My post that you were replying to concerned oil only, not total products. Since 2021 the US has been importing more oil than it exports, per  https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports-of-crude-oil   and  https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports-of-crude-oil

Biden suspended oil & gas leasing, not refining capability. To have to import oil, that could be drilled locally, and then refine that to export it again, is not entirely optimum for pricing. 

To be fair, the US is not the only country with curious energy practices. Domestic users of LNG in Australia are paying a high price (globally compared) and even substantially higher per unit than the international customers that they export to, in a country that sits on a lot of LNG. 

[gowlerk 1,902]

14 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Biden suspended oil & gas leasing, not refining capability. To have to import oil, that could be drilled locally, and then refine that to export it again, is not entirely optimum for pricing. 

To be fair, the US is not the only country with curious energy practices. Domestic users of LNG in Australia are paying a high price (globally compared) and even substantially higher per unit than the international customers that they export to, in a country that sits on a lot of LNG. 

The petroleum industry is international and highly integrated. Whether or not there is a shortage or a surplus of crude production is the US is not all that relevant. There is a shortage of supply in the world right now. Mostly due to the sanctions on Russia. If those sanctions were truly effective the price would be a lot higher than it is now. That is how supply and demand come into balance. We end up paying more to fuel our Caravans and Otters, people in third world countries just go without.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

Biden suspended oil & gas leasing, not refining capability. To have to import oil, that could be drilled locally, and then refine that to export it again, is not entirely optimum for pricing. 

 

Yes, so that local drilling, I assume you grasp that time frames can be a problem. And actually, the oil companies have, I think, over 9000 unused leases in hand, and their own properties, so that tiresome canard really needs a rest.

[billvon 2,380]

1 hour ago, metalslug said:

Biden suspended oil & gas leasing, not refining capability.

Biden did not suspend a single active lease.  He did not suspend a single future lease that was already approved; there were over 9000 of them that are available for drilling.  He did stop approving future NEW leases - leases that an oil company might consider for drilling in 20 years - temporarily.

He has now resumed them, and the US government has now issued more new leases since 2021 than it has during the entire Trump administration.

And you are correct; Biden did zero to restrict refinery capacity.  Oil companies did that to keep gas prices high.

So I think you're going to have to find another angle to blame Biden for this.  (I wouldn't worry; conservatives have literally hundreds of blamestorms to choose from.)

[metalslug 31]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

And you are correct; Biden did zero to restrict refinery capacity.  Oil companies did that to keep gas prices high.

Well, make up your mind. You've said in earlier posts that the US has record exports of refined products and that there's no supply problem. So where is the refinery capacity restriction that you speak of?  The most recent significant reduction was caused by hurricane damage, although I'm sure you'll be blaming that on climate change caused by the refinery itself. Those crafty petroleum magnates.

[billvon 2,380]

22 minutes ago, metalslug said:

So where is the refinery capacity restriction that you speak of? 

From NPR:

"There's just fewer refiners in the U.S. today than a couple of years ago. Refining capacity in the U.S. is about a million barrels a day below what it was prior to the pandemic. That's left the country unable to meet its fuel needs as more people are commuting, traveling and driving as they emerge from the throes of the pandemic."

So why aren't they restarting refineries?  Money.  They don't want to spend it.  And why would they?  They are making record profits by reducing supply.  Why spend money to increase supply?

"As for turning back on idled refineries, that's not a quick fix either. It would take months to bring the refineries back online, and it would be costly for the refiners."

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/26/1107265390/refinery-shortage-high-gas-prices-russia

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

Well, make up your mind. 

Make up his mind on which of the pints he’s offered that utterly demolish the right wing media talking points you are yet again simply parroting?

 

I don’t think he needs to.

[olofscience 420]

4 hours ago, billvon said:

So why aren't they restarting refineries?  Money.  They don't want to spend it.  And why would they?  They are making record profits by reducing supply.  Why spend money to increase supply?

Well according to brent's "sources" crude refineries are forcefully being repurposed (fractional distillation columns and all) by Biden for biofuels and unicorn pee so it's his fault prices went up  I told him there were refineries for sale he could buy but he went quiet after that.

 

Oh hey metalslug, you're here! You went quiet in the AI thread...

[Phil1111 908]

On 7/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, JoeWeber said:

Surely it's just a misunderstanding amongst friends. Today my Jet-A delivery came in 4% less per gallon than two weeks ago. What was interesting was the driver told me that their delivered price for gasoline was consistently 10-15¢ less per gallon than the stations, except lately. Lately it's consistently 70-75¢ less. That's a big chunk of a 5 buck gallon, bastards.

So are you thinking of becoming a republican? Putting a "fuel surcharge" on jumps and pocketing the fuel savings as republican type DZ owners are aft to do.

[metalslug 31]

6 hours ago, billvon said:

From NPR:

Ah, the NPR ; "we'll beat your right-wing talking points with our left-wing talking points..."

The oil companies have seen where government sentiment on fossil fuels is headed; They cannot reasonably be expected to invest big capital in capacity improvement when the future expectation is reduced consumption through legislation. The government has set that market mood. Not worry though as, according to you, "it's not a supply problem".

2 hours ago, jakee said:

I don’t think he needs to.

You might agree that 'not making up their minds' is an accepted lefty standard. I suppose it's some consolation that he didn't defer to "So what".

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

Oh hey metalslug, you're here! You went quiet in the AI thread...

I had said all that was relevant there, although I should perhaps feel flattered that you're more interested in my projects than the OP of that thread.