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gowlerk

Crypto pricing and cost of mining it

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15 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you lose it, in an absolutist sense, it will no longer be yours. I eschew the idea that it's playing with the houses money. It's not theirs, it's yours.

Casino chips are worthless, nontaxable and belong to the casino.

Crypto is similar in that it's not taxed until it becomes a realized gain.  I suppose that's why they're sometimes called tokens, you know, those things at Chucky Cheese you use to convert into tickets to buy various types of suckers?

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1 minute ago, Coreece said:

Casino chips are worthless, nontaxable and belong to the casino.

Crypto is similar in that it's not taxed until it becomes a realized gain.  I suppose that's why they're sometimes called tokens, you know, those things at Chucky Cheese you use to convert into tickets to buy various types of suckers?

Negative. A $100 chip gets you $100 at the cashiers window when you exit the game. Lose it at the table and you just lost $100. Simple.

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Negative. A $100 chip gets you $100 at the cashiers window when you exit the game. Lose it at the table and you just lost $100. Simple.

Some will win $500 then lose it before that gain was realized and still consider it as a $100 loss.  That's why you're not taxed on it if won/lossed during a single session.

But whatever, of course your're right to a certain extent.  There are benefits to having both mindsets depending on what you're trying to do.

 

Edited by Coreece

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50 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Some will win $500 then lose it before that gain was realized and still consider it as a $100 loss.  That's why you're not taxed on it if won/lossed during a single session.

But whatever, of course your're right to a certain extent.  There are benefits to having both mindsets depending on what you're trying to do.

 

The concept is fungibility. Either you see it or you don't, I guess. Before the last real estate crash a friend had paper gains of several hundred thousand dollars on developable, and very salable, land. I told him to exit and log the win. He thought, possibly correctly although it didn't turn out that way, that I was exiting too soon. He held on and lost it all. Like you, he was sanguine about it saying it was only paper gains. I, on the other hand, banked modest but very real profits.

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11 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Like you, he was sanguine about it saying it was only paper gains.

Like I said, there are benefits to both mindsets depending on what you're trying to do.  I'm nothing like your buddy, nor you for that matter. 

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(edited)
38 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I'm nothing like your buddy, nor you for that matter. 

You have never met my friend and all you know of me is what I post here. Now you may have strong opinions about my world view, and fairly so, as I am without restraint in posting those views here. But you don't know me in any degree of completion that you could fairly assert that you are nothing like me. Unless, and I suspect this is true, your main focus is that we have a demonstrable dichotomy of core beliefs. There I would not disagree.

Edited by JoeWeber

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(edited)

The context here is about investments.

As for core beliefs, they don't really matter in the real world.  People talk a big game online, but we're all out there doing our own thing side by side, face to face and for the most part we all get along, keep calm, STFU and remain civil.

 

Edited by Coreece
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Just now, Coreece said:

The context here is about investments.

As for core beliefs, they don't really matter in the real world.  People talk a big game online, but we're all out there doing our own thing side by side, face to face and for the most part we all get along.

 

Okay, back to investments I refer back to my previous comments about fungibility and logged wins.  It is your money in real dollar terms regardless of the vehicle you are using. If it goes to zero you lose money.

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3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Okay, back to investments I refer back to my previous comments about fungibility and logged wins.  It is your money in real dollar terms regardless of the vehicle you are using. If it goes to zero you lose money.

Fine, you lose your investment.  But initially you were talking about losing money that you never earned, as if was a realized loss.

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2 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Fine, you lose your investment.  But initially you were talking about losing money that you never earned, as if was a realized loss.

No. It is always your money be it crypto, chips, real estate whatever. If you own it and don't sell it (distribute is the term I use) and it goes to zero you lose your money not the houses.

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4 minutes ago, Coreece said:

 Losses are part of the game and essential to a healthy ecosystem.  Scared money never wins as it likely sells itself short.

I have sold early and short my entire career. My objective has always been to hit singles and be thrilled with the odd double. I'm happy with the outcome.

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2 hours ago, Coreece said:

 Losses are part of the game and essential to a healthy ecosystem.  Scared money never wins as it likely sells itself short.

The problem with crypto, since it doesn't have any intrinsic value, for someone to have a gain, someone has to lose out - no value is being created, fiat money just being stored temporarily in the tokens.

 

But in other assets it's not zero-sum. If you buy a plot of land, then you build something valuable on it, you've just created additional value. You can buy some paper and write a blockbuster novel on it, you've just created a lot of value. There's value destruction as well - properties can get flooded, etc. but the sum is not zero. Okay, some people do make money by trading currencies and their fluctuations in value - but that's really just feeding on the slight mismatch between the fiat currency supply and demand.

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6 hours ago, olofscience said:

The problem with crypto, since it doesn't have any intrinsic value, for someone to have a gain, someone has to lose out - no value is being created, fiat money just being stored temporarily in the tokens.

 

But in other assets it's not zero-sum. If you buy a plot of land, then you build something valuable on it, you've just created additional value. You can buy some paper and write a blockbuster novel on it, you've just created a lot of value. There's value destruction as well - properties can get flooded, etc. but the sum is not zero. Okay, some people do make money by trading currencies and their fluctuations in value - but that's really just feeding on the slight mismatch between the fiat currency supply and demand.

Also, those traded fiat currencies are supported by economic activity and government promises. With Crypto the only government promise is to find a way to rein it in from being the untaxed, illegal activity, currency of choice. In reality crypto has no more value than pet rocks, chia pets, and Nehru jackets.

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My son-in-law is a programmer for Citi Corp and has been mining at his house since the beginning. He does not follow Bitcoin AFK. He does not talk much about his gain but I think he is doing OK. It seems a lot like day trading. Money is made on strategic exit and conversion.

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15 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

Money is made on strategic exit and conversion.

That's my whole issue with crypto. Mining is one thing (although the electricity cost is ridiculous). But the whole finance thing of not actually producing anything, just making money off of transactions that don't produce anything, I don't care for.

Which means it's lucky I didn't end up in finance, huh...

Wendy P.

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23 hours ago, wmw999 said:

That's my whole issue with crypto. Mining is one thing (although the electricity cost is ridiculous). But the whole finance thing of not actually producing anything, just making money off of transactions that don't produce anything, I don't care for.

Which means it's lucky I didn't end up in finance, huh...

Wendy P.

My son-in-law's mining server runs with video cards. The operating cost is neglible. Like I said, it's like day trading. There is no product just greed.

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1 hour ago, RonD1120 said:

My son-in-law's mining server runs with video cards. The operating cost is neglible. Like I said, it's like day trading. There is no product just greed.

I don't think you understand the variable costs/overhead of crypto mining." In some parts of Europe, energy rates have shot up so dramatically that mining one bitcoin can cost up to $25,000, says Daniel Jogg, CEO of Enerhash, a company running blockchain data centers."

So it cost $25k in electricity(the old lower rate) to get a now $20k bitcoin. Thats w/o amortizing the cost of the equipment. Which can become obsolete within a few years.

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2 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

My son-in-law's mining server runs with video cards. The operating cost is neglible. Like I said, it's like day trading. There is no product just greed.

What Phil just said. At the current cost there would be no profit because the operating cost is not actually negligible at all. But you are correct about the other part. There is no product, just greed. And also waste.

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4 hours ago, RonD1120 said:
Quote

Mining is one thing (although the electricity cost is ridiculous

 

My son-in-law's mining server runs with video cards. The operating cost is neglible. Like I said, it's like day trading. There is no product just greed.

Video cards take electricity.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

They don't run on oil?

No, but from what I hear, some conservatives are pushing for coal powered video cards to save the coal industry.  Remember, government doesn't pick winners or losers - unless their side is losing.

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7 hours ago, billvon said:

Video cards take electricity.

How much does it cost to run a graphics card?
 
 
Power Consumption--Graphics Cards And Electricity Costs
Power Consumption Nvidia Graphic Cards 2D Desktop Watts (socket) 3D Operation Cost in Dollars 365 Days x 8 Hours
GeForce GTX 280 (1024 MB) 53

145

 

 

His server runs 2 cards, IIRC, 24/7. It costs less than his AC which also runs 24/7. He lives in FL He drives a Tesla and has ordered a new one. Cost is negligible.

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10 hours ago, Phil1111 said:
12 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

My son-in-law's mining server runs with video cards. The operating cost is neglible. Like I said, it's like day trading. There is no product just greed.

I don't think you understand the variable costs/overhead of crypto mining." In some parts of Europe, energy rates have shot up so dramatically that mining one BITCOIN can cost up to $25,000

I don't think YOU understand:

1. What do video cards (GPUs) have to do with mining BITCOIN at this point in the game?  ASICs have rendered them obsolete for years now due to increasing complexity and network difficulty.  Ron said his son-in-law was mining CRPTO since the beginning.  So he likely started out mining Bitcoin on GPUs when it was practical to do so and then switched to an Ethereum based coin when it wasn't.  And now that Etherum is moving to a Proof of Stake concept, that will be obsolete too - along with a 99% reduction in energy consumption.

2. What does Ron's son-in-law have to do with Europe's energy rates?  You didn't know how much he was paying for electricity or how many GPUs he was running, nor the coins he was mining and the pools which he was affiliated. So how can you understand his operating costs better than him?

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On 7/4/2022 at 11:56 AM, JoeWeber said:

With Crypto the only government promise is to find a way to rein it in from being the untaxed, illegal activity, currency of choice.

https://www.science.org/content/article/why-criminals-cant-hide-behind-bitcoin

"When Bitcoin first emerged, law enforcement officers were "panicking," Meiklejohn says. "They thought these technologies were dangerous and made it harder for them to do their job." But as the arrests and convictions have rolled in, "there's a steady shift toward seeing cryptocurrency as a tool for prosecuting crimes."

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/haileylennon/2021/01/19/the-false-narrative-of-bitcoins-role-in-illicit-activity/?sh=5be9f5e23432

Janet Yellen, President-elect Joe Biden’s pick for Secretary of the Treasury, stated cryptocurrencies are “a particular concern” when it comes to criminal activity and terrorist financing.

Yellen continued, “I think many (cryptocurrencies) are used, at least in a transaction sense, mainly for illicit financing. And I think we really need to examine ways in which we can curtail their use, and make sure that anti-money laundering (sic) doesn't occur through those channels.”

This isn’t the first time the cryptocurrency industry has heard this misconception and done a collective eye roll. Yellen may believe cryptocurrencies are used “mainly for illicit financing” but the data shows otherwise. . .

 

 

https://dailycoin.com/fiat-vs-crypto-which-is-more-popular-for-criminal-activities/

Despite the many concerns of crypto being an instrument for crime, a newly released three-yearly report by the U.S. Treasury Department says that fiat is still the preferred medium for most financial crimes.

The same results were found in the 2020 report by SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication). Even though DeFi is synonymous for obscure money transfers to many, government-backed fiat is still generally the leading choice for laundering money.

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