Landing on your butt: risk vs likelihood?

[eatfastnoodle 2]

Hi, I'm a newly licensed jumper. I'm still working hard to improve my landing quality/consistency. I have some questions:

We all know you should always be prepared for PLF every time you jump. It's been taught and repeated endlessly during AFF and solo training.

but for novice jumpers, first few jumps are far more likely to end up on your butt than standing up or actually attempting a PLF (as least as far as my experience watching AFF students goes). We all know a screwed up butt landing could leave you paralyzed for the rest of your life while a PLF, more often than not, leaves you with broken legs, if any injury at all. Even for intermediate or even highly experienced jumpers, I personally saw more butt landing comparing to PLFs when landings don't get smooth enough for a stand-up soft-landing.

And when I was still a student, for a while, I thought butt landing/surfing is ugly, but still better than PLF as it happens so frequently (saw it all the time, not to mention all the tandem landings), so a few times I actually went for a butt sliding as opposed to preparing myself for PLF when it's clear I wasn't going to land standing-up.

So my question: why are so many people butt landing for so long (I'm discounting tandem instructors as they're often the most experienced group) when the consequence of a bad butt landing is so devastating? And why are people not treating it as serious as, say, low turn (you're guaranteed to a stern "chat" if you turned low no matter your skill level)?

[pchapman 261]

Simple answer is that IF you are on a smooth surface, and IF you are experienced enough to know that your flare is going to leave you with essentially zero vertical speed, then a sliding landing can be quite safe.

And safer than doing a multiple-tumble PLF at speed.

The key is to not be coming down with much vertical speed at all, something that students especially can't guarantee, as they are still learning to flare right and may have canopies where the amount of time the canopy will plane out level, may be extremely small, making it hard to set down perfectly.

Note that I'm saying a sliding landing. One may end up on one's butt, but the idea is to be twisted slightly and slide in more on one's thigh than making it a truly butt landing. (This isn't as easily possible with tandem landings though.) The jumper may also be sliding along only on their feet during the beginning and middle part of the landing, only ending up on their butt or thigh at the end when the speed has been scrubbed off.

So overall, student butt landings still = dangerous and bad; while experienced jumper sliding landings = not done all the time but considered normal and accepted.

[GooniesKid 0]

pchapman

So overall, student butt landings still = dangerous and bad;

Plus doesn't student "butt" landing (ie. sliding landing) promote "bad" habits?

[yoink 321]

Yeah.

that of landing on your butt.

[NickyCal 17]

I'm still a very new jumper, but here's my take on the landing situation. When I am coming in fast, I will always slide it. I'm 38 years old and have been blessed with a lifetime of Rheumatoid Arthritis, so running out a fast landing just isn't going to happen. My joints won't allow me to safely do that without risking some pretty serious tears/pulls/swelling. I don't want to tumble and PLF what is a perfectly safe landing approach, and so as I level out over the ground at speed, where a good runner might put his feet down and go, I'll just lift my legs and slide. This is generally only the case on no-wind days. With a bit of headwind, I am able to slow myself down enough with the final bit of flare that I can usually stand them up these days. And with a good headwind, heck, I don't have to do anything but wait for my feet to slowly touch the ground. Big canopy, little person

[Edited to add: When I say "slide it in", I'm not talking about riding the ground on my butt. My feet go up and I fly that last bit of horizontal momentum over the ground until I'm nice and slow and drop down for a little final slide to stop. I don't tear up jumpsuits skidding in my landings or anything!]

[wasatchrider 0]

I came from a quite differnt background and learned to land parachutes long before skydiving and actually have stood up every skydive landing ever yey me.
When learning to land though I did have many skid in landings from my feet and one low turn to hip check never right on my butt... brusing a tailbone sucks. I wouldnt try to land on my butt with any sort of speed or fast decent.

BASE 1519

[eatfastnoodle 2]

NickyCal

I'm still a very new jumper, but here's my take on the landing situation. When I am coming in fast, I will always slide it. I'm 38 years old and have been blessed with a lifetime of Rheumatoid Arthritis, so running out a fast landing just isn't going to happen. My joints won't allow me to safely do that without risking some pretty serious tears/pulls/swelling. I don't want to tumble and PLF what is a perfectly safe landing approach, and so as I level out over the ground at speed, where a good runner might put his feet down and go, I'll just lift my legs and slide. This is generally only the case on no-wind days. With a bit of headwind, I am able to slow myself down enough with the final bit of flare that I can usually stand them up these days. And with a good headwind, heck, I don't have to do anything but wait for my feet to slowly touch the ground. Big canopy, little person

[Edited to add: When I say "slide it in", I'm not talking about riding the ground on my butt. My feet go up and I fly that last bit of horizontal momentum over the ground until I'm nice and slow and drop down for a little final slide to stop. I don't tear up jumpsuits skidding in my landings or anything!]

But this is really dangerous if screwed up. Somebody talked to me one day and really scared me, hence the post. (being crippled from neck down for the rest of my life, to me, is way scarier than slamming into earth at terminal velocity.)

[pchapman 261]

Regarding slides:

Quote

But this is really dangerous if screwed up.

If I may elaborate more, so is any landing if screwed up. So is any parachute jump. So you don't do certain things, unless you have reasonable skills to do those particular things.

So if you don't feel you are ready to start sliding landings, then you are correct and wise to avoid them!

If you haven't been able to get rid of all vertical velocity, and are coming in steep, then a PLF is the best you can do.

If you have planed out, and can't get rid of enough horizontal velocity to run it out, then (if the ground is smooth), a slide is the best you can do.

If you have a lot of horizontal and vertical velocity when about to impact, there's no method that really works well, but a PLF and then tucking tight is about the best you can do.

So if you are not sure you are going to touch down with near zero vertical velocity, getting ready for a PLF is still the best thing.

A slide is only if you are confident that you'll touch down with low vertical velocity, and the ground is smooth enough to allow a slide. Even a moderately experienced jumper, jumping in non turbulent conditions, can carry out a slide safely because their flare is repeatable enough to provide a low vertical velocity. While one can't avoid errors all of the time, most major errors in the flare should be spotted early enough in the process for the jumper to prepare for an immediate PLF.

Hope this helps.

[wmw999 2,116]

If you prepare to PLF for every landing, and then change if you see that you can stand it up after all, a PLF won't feel like a failure. And yes, it does work better for vertical than horizontal speed. But preparing for a PLF will leave you able to slide it on at the last minute, too

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[eatfastnoodle 2]

Thanks. It helps a lot.

[eatfastnoodle 2]

Thanks.

[rwieder 0]

Never mind landing on your can, concentrate on standing your landings...always. Have someone film your landings and study footage, but learn to stand it up each and every time. Forget about sliding in on you booty. I've jumped at DZ's where they don't let their TM's slide in like that. With a canopy that large, and all of that flare power there's no reason for it, unless it's a no-wind day. Sliding your landings in is a very bad habit to get into. Once you've trained your self to slide in your landings you've built up muscle memory that's gonna be hard to break once you do decide to stand up your landings. Also, please take a canopy course, ASAP.

[DJL 232]

Being prepared to PLF will save you from broken bones at some point in your skydiving life. A butt slide is absolutely not your go-to at an alternative to a botched landing.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[riggerrob 558]

Whether you butt-slide or PLF depends upon your ANGLE of arrival.
If you land with excess forward speed, the first option is to run off the excess speed. The second option is to slide off the excess forward momentum. A good forward slide is slightly off-centre, to shift the impact/friction from your tail-bone to your thigh muscles. Since the human body is conditioned to fall - or slide - forward, no big deal.

If you land straight down, then the best bet is to PLF.

If you land going backwards (e.g. to much wind) then you should PLF in a effort to shift the momentum away from your tail-bone to the fleshy parts of your thighs.

[davjohns 1]

I can't recall ever seeing a PLF at a dropzone. I've seen plenty of bad landings.

Before every jump, I practice pulling my pilot. I practice pulling my cutaway / reserve. I attempt to build muscle memory.

In military jumps, PLF is pretty well mandatory. So, we practice them before every jump. We attempt to build muscle memory.

How often do you practice your PLF? I can't think of a time I saw anyone practice it on a DZ. I'm pretty sure this accounts for why I have never seen one executed on landing.

Just an observation and possible reason so many people ride in on the keister.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[potatoman 0]

A slide can be serious in an instant....

Hit a rock sticking out the ground about 5inches, obviously travelling rather fast, with minimal vertical speed. Could only see the rock when a couple of feet away from it. Also, tried not to hit it with the tailbone.

L1,2 and 4 broken.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[wasatchrider 0]

I saw a plf once one YouTube but never in real life

BASE 1519

[pchapman 261]

potatoman

A slide can be serious in an instant....

Yes indeed. But presumably that wasn't in the middle of your DZ's landing area ....

Easily possible in tall grass during an off-landing or something like that though.

If one has a lot of horizontal speed, and the terrain is rough, what are the options? Just my thoughts:

If the terrain is really rough, one might just have to flare as fully as possible, then drop it in and roll and tuck.

If the landing surface is not too rough but uncertain, I might try an 'upright slide', trying to stay somewhat upright or standing while sliding (even if legs forwards), so one is scrubbing speed and unloading the canopy to allow it to continue to fly as the speed decreases. Then if one's feet hit something they can't slide over, one can pitch forward into a roll. (Which is easier if one is already twisted somewhat sideways, as people tend to do during a good sliding landing, unlike the direct butt slide style.) This is in comparison to a low slide with hips just off the ground, in which case if an obstacle is encountered, one may just crumple up against the obstacle.

[potatoman 0]

This was right next to the beer line, where thousands land and me. How we got to miss this???

Taking a jackhammer with.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[NickyCal 17]

Quote

But this is really dangerous if screwed up. Somebody talked to me one day and really scared me, hence the post. (being crippled from neck down for the rest of my life, to me, is way scarier than slamming into earth at terminal velocity.)

I should probably clarify that I'm a small person jumping a Sabre 170, so I don't come in fast. If there is any headwind at all, I can generally stand it up. If its a hot, humid, no-wind day, however, I'm often going just a bit faster than my old joints are happy to run it out. At this point, there is NO vertical movement. I am nicely planed out over the landing area. I glide a very short distance above the ground, then finish with a short and slow slide on my thigh (I always lean left, for whatever reason). Even if I did hit something, it wouldn't do more than bruise my leg.

I do see the wisdom in the muscle memory argument, that really you shouldn't do this ever, because it becomes an ingrained option which isn't a great one. I'll have to think on that. If I hit the ground hard and fast on my feet, I'm likely to do a whole lot more damage than my current default glide and short slow slide to a stop. I took a canopy course and actually queried the instructor on my no-wind slides. He specifically said, "I'd much rather see you slide it in than tumble it in". And tumble it in is what I'd be doing on the landings that I'm currently sliding in, so...

[eatfastnoodle 2]

I don't see many either. I don't think many practice PLF after AFF, especially for fairly experienced but not so experienced that you know everything and anything jumpers, I think most would mentally be prepared for a PLF if he knew it's gonna be a rough landing, say, he's jumping a round canopy. But if something unexpected happened right before touchdown, say, wind direction change forces a crosswind landing, probably the muscle memory isn't there to PLF solely on instinct.

[mrubin 0]

I used a good PLF last weekend to save myself from what would have been an unexpected rough landing. I hadn't jumped in a few weeks and on my first jump of the day I flared too early and too hard. I popped up high and immediately prepared for a PLF. After I landed I got right up, dusted myself off, grabbed my gear, and went to pack for my next jump. Without a PLF I probably wouldn't have been able to get moving so quickly.

I think the key is to know that you have a good PLF in your toolbox and not be afraid to use it. I'd much rather PLF and get dirty in front of everybody than try to force a stand-up landing and hurt myself. Dirt washes away a lot faster than pain.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[scl964 0]

While a student I made I down wind landing on a windy day. Knowing I wasn't going to stand it up I went for the slide. I gave it about half brakes when I came n hot. It was like I was mowing grass funny thing is once I slowed down I just stood up and my butt never touched the ground. It felt like being pulled up out of the water on skiis. The instructor had a good laugh.

[Joellercoaster 6]

My instructor made me PLF all the way around the grass area at Lillo (in Spain). Even now on landing, I can hear her on the radio saying, "feet and knees together" at about 30ft.

Watch any groundschool at a BPA (UK) dropzone, and see students lining up to jump off a step and PLF.

I think the PLF taken a bit more seriously on this side of the pond, for whatever reason.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[wmw999 2,116]

I wasn't joking when I said I prepare for a PLF on every landing, and switch if it looks good. I fall down more than most people, but I always get back up, and I can always get on the next load I'm packed for.

Practice them sometimes, until they really become part of your arsenal.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)