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AlanS

Cross Country - Planning

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Doing a "cross country" jump is on my skydiving bucket list, and I'd appreciate any advice or stories anyone has on planning one.

Some questions below.

If the DZ owner is OK with it does someone need to inform air traffic control?

If many people go, do they need to similar wing load?

Any recommended license/experience level?

What is the largest group to do this?

This is a "someday maybe" idea, I don't plan on doing anything soon. My home DZ is Byron, but I'd also like to try this in Hawaii or Eloy.


BTW. I did a search and found a thread about this from a decade ago, so thought it was OK to repost this topic rather than bring back that thread.

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For license/experience level - I'd say enough experience to be comfortable selecting an out landing area and safely landing out, and that may vary depending on where you are. Somewhere like Byron or Eloy where there's a pretty decent amount of wide open space, finding a decent spot to land isn't that challenging. Somewhere like Hawaii... not so much.

Wherever you are, your best bet is to talk it through with experienced hands at *that* DZ. They can tell you about prevailing winds, and whether if the wind is coming from X direction cross countries are great but if they're coming from Y direction, they're not a good idea. They can talk you through the flight paths and the outs, and local limitations (such as other air traffic).

I've not been to Hawaii but you may find limitations there (or at other DZs where the out landing areas can be quite hazardous) simply because of the higher risks of landing out. At a big DZ like Eloy, whether or not you can do one will at least partly depend on what's going on in the operations that day. If they're only turning one plane it's more likely to be allowed than if multiple planes are turning. But as you've probably already figured out by your question about checking with DZ management, a cross-country the type of jump you always want to discuss before you do it so they can work it safely into operations and so that if someone's on the ground counting canopies, they're not freaking out because you're not landing with everyone who did freefall jumps.

As for wingloading, nope, not everyone has to be similar wingloading. At Lost Prairie they do a multi-plane cross-country load every year, and people exit from highest wingloading to lightest wingloading. That creates natural separation, which is a good thing when you've got a lot of canopies in the air.

Cross country jumps are often done at sunset - that creates a couple more things to think about. Climate - are you somewhere where the temp drops dramatically (like Lost Prairie) as soon as the sun goes down? Dress appropriately or your beautiful jump will be miserable. If part of the attraction is that beautiful sunset, which way will you have to face to see the sun? Which way will you have to face to head back to the dropzone? Make sure you're not "that guy" who gets so distracted he forgets to make it back. :D

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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At a big DZ like Eloy, whether or not you can do one will at least partly depend on what's going on in the operations that day. If they're only turning one plane it's more likely to be allowed than if multiple planes are turning.



That reminds me ... About how long does it take to descend under canopy from 10-12 k?

With a single plane, it seems like the time between jumps is about 30 minutes. Would that be enough time to get back on the ground before the next load?

I was at Eloy for the first time last week and on that day they had two planes going at once. I'm not going to ask about cross country until I've got some more experience. But I one of my jumps I was impressed with how nice the mountains looked from altitude.

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As for wingloading, nope, not everyone has to be similar wingloading. At Lost Prairie they do a multi-plane cross-country load every year, and people exit from highest wingloading to lightest wingloading. That creates natural separation, which is a good thing when you've got a lot of canopies in the air.



How many people do the cross-country jump at Lost Prairie? Are there any other places that do large groups of cross country?

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...Hawaii but you may find limitations there...



I'll need to look at this more. If you can travel along the coast there does seem to be some fields that look like potential outs depending on what is growing in them. (Hopefully not vineyards with stakes in the ground :S)

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AlanS


That reminds me ... About how long does it take to descend under canopy from 10-12 k?



If I take my time, it can take 15 minutes or so. If I hurry I can be down in 5 or 6 minutes.

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With a single plane, it seems like the time between jumps is about 30 minutes. Would that be enough time to get back on the ground before the next load?



Yeah probably. Even with the 20 minute turn around times on a good day at Mile Hi, I won't stay up long enough to conflict with the hop and pops. You're going to want to coordinate with the safety guy and tell the pilot what you're up to. The safety guy at Eloy just sent me and a buddy west of the runway until we hit 3000 feet. IIRC everyone else was east that day, so we weren't flying in anyone else's airspace.

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I was at Eloy for the first time last week and on that day they had two planes going at once. I'm not going to ask about cross country until I've got some more experience. But I one of my jumps I was impressed with how nice the mountains looked from altitude.



It's pretty there. I can dig up some videos from Mile Hi in Colorado, if you want to PM me.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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Some notes (other than what's been mentioned already) -

Make sure that someone on the ground knows what's going on with the load (manifest, gear colors, who to check in with etc.)

Make sure you know the outs on the way back, and make sure you know which fields/roads etc have powerlines near them. Do not assume that you'll be able to see them from altitude especially near dusk. Carry a light if you'll land significantly after sunset.

Jump a canopy (and a reserve) you can land wherever you need to.

Learn the various tricks for extending glide ratio on a canopy.

Wear good shoes.

Bring a pullup cord.

Consider bringing a cellphone or radio. (Cellphones don't work everywhere.)

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AlanS

If the DZ owner is OK with it does someone need to inform air traffic control?

Depends on the type of airspace. Tell the pilot your intentions and he can handle the ATC stuff.

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What is the largest group to do this?


LP they often do 2 twin otters, so almost 50. The visuals are great. B|

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FlyingRhenquest

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That reminds me ... About how long does it take to descend under canopy from 10-12 k?



If I take my time, it can take 15 minutes or so. If I hurry I can be down in 5 or 6 minutes.


Just a remark: If the jump is a cross country (instead of a high pull at 12K somewhere close to the DZ) normally you don't want to hurry. Unless you don't want to make it back.

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Deimian


Just a remark: If the jump is a cross country (instead of a high pull at 12K somewhere close to the DZ) normally you don't want to hurry. Unless you don't want to make it back.



This is true. I don't usually wander too far from the DZ. I did take a spot from a 3 or 4 miles away with some wingsuit guys one time, though. Definitely wasn't in a hurry that day!
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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Get permissions, ATC, DZO, local advice as required. Any CRW dogs will have advice about spotting and opening high.....

Planning the spot is most important. If you can get the latest wind speeds and directions from ATC it will help a lot.

You should be able to get wind speeds at each level (thousand feet) and you can then plot your exit point on a map. Wind direction can vary at different levels, Plot them on a map and then find your mean wind direction. Your exit point will be along that line.

Next you can work out distance to exit point depending on mean wind speed. If your wind speed averages out at 30 mph, you can allow for about a mile per thousand feet of altitude, each thousand taking about a minute of time.

From that you can work out the best exit point upwind of the DZ.

So, roughly, with a mean wind speed of 30 mph, you should cover about 12 miles from 12 grand.

Warm clothes, a phone, maybe a ground crew if possible below you at the exit point to follow you home, also good in the case of a malfunction to pick up lost gear, or to deal with an out landing and injury scenario.

Have a plan for a malfunction, Depending on type of mal, are you gonna chop it or ride it down? (sensible thing is treat a mal as you would normally, immediate EP's, worry about gear later)

Best to not do this on your own, have a buddy so you can look out for each other. Stick together under canopy.Sunset might not be a good idea if you have a chop and meed to find canopy/freebag etc. Make sure your exit point is over land rather than out to sea or over a lake.

Take a phone or radio as suggested.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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AlanS

***LP they often do 2 twin otters, so almost 50. The visuals are great. B|



Wow, 50?! Any pictures? Does this happen on a particular day at LP?

Second Saturday of the boogie. Sunset.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Flashlight, knife, bottle of water, cash and comms. Stay with your mates, follow the leader. (a broken ankle in the field...you will need your mate)

Know terrain, but also know where the roads are for easy recovery/navigation.

Fly with the sun.

I used to do it with student gear. Only released toggles at 3000ft agl. Enough time to sort a stuck toggle, and landing can get rough with strong winds, specially when out, or building/tree rotors etc.
(the fun part was using static line rigs, lol)

Be carefull of hilly valleys/altitude.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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NWFlyer

******LP they often do 2 twin otters, so almost 50. The visuals are great. B|



Wow, 50?! Any pictures? Does this happen on a particular day at LP?

Second Saturday of the boogie. Sunset.

Before the runway was paved and the economy went in the toilet the aircraft for the cross country were the DC3, Skyvan, two Twin Otters and a Cessna. Not quite sure but I think there was 106 on the cross county back then.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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I've attached a picture of my notes I use when planning cross country jumps. It elaborates on what obelixtim said.

My notes assume wing loading close to 1:1 and that the winds aloft are consistent in direction. I like a jump run perpendicular to the wind line with the door facing the DZ. The first jumper gets out before the windline, the last jumper gets out after the windline. After all have exited, the jumpers are in a reasonably straight line perpendicular to the windline.

My logic is to plan on being over the DZ with 1000 ft left and to plan on a 1000 ft opening (just for easy math and to be conservative with the spot). If exiting at 10,000 ft, that leaves 8,000 ft of canopy time. Loaded at 1:1 you will loose approximately 1000 ft for each minute. That means you have aprox. 8 minutes of working time. In full flight your canopy will have an air speed of approximately 20 mph.

Now average the winds aloft for the altitudes you will be flying back. Lets say the average of the winds aloft is 30 mph. Add your wind speed of 20mph (which is constant) and come up with 50 mph you will be flying for 8 minutes. Multiply the minutes of canopy time times the rate of speed to determine how far you can take the spot. In this example, 8 minutes times 50 mph = 6.64 miles.

Corrections welcome with my math or logic.

Here's a scenario to watch out for that happened to me. I planned a CC jump and we all agreed afterwards we could have gone twice as far. So we did it again and I spotted us twice as far - going for about 10 miles. We came up 5 miles short. Why? Because I did not monitor the wind speeds with the pilot while on the way to the spot. Winds had dropped in half during the ride up. I'm now the proud winner of the Helen Keller spotting award at our DZ! Not a big deal if all jumpers are heads up on off landings. Big deal if that's not the case. Then again, you shouldn't be doing a CC jump if you haven't heeded all the warnings already stated on this thread.

Here's another problem newer jumpers may not consider. On those CC jumps where "we could have gone twice as far..." it can be challenging for newer jumpers to not go past the DZ. Those jumpers may not be ready to face into the wind as needed to avoid going past the DZ.

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Now average the winds aloft for the altitudes you will be flying back. Lets say the average of the winds aloft is 30 mph. Add your wind speed of 20mph (which is constant) and come up with 50 mph you will be flying for 8 minutes. Multiply the minutes of canopy time times the rate of speed to determine how far you can take the spot. In this example, 8 minutes times 50 mph = 6.64 miles.

Corrections welcome with my math or logic.



Or about... 22.75 miles on a Stiletto with a touch of rears. B|;)
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Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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