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garyhugo

AFF Injury Rates.

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Hi! Total newbie here. Four tandems last year. AFF & A-License this year (Hopefully!).

Through my DZ's Facebook group, I've been able to meet a few other newbies. One of which broke her leg in two places just this past Saturday. [:/]

I can't help but wonder... Does anyone have a sense of how many (or what % of) AFF students suffer a major injury before obtaining their A-License?

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British BPA info suggests 4 injuries per 1000 jumps for AFF style novices.

They publish decent risk info:
http://www.bpa.org.uk/staysafe/how-safe/

(Their stats also show women tend to have higher injury rates than for men. To what degree that's due to physical robustness or spatial awareness or whatever differences, is a whole other debate.)

I don't know the criteria but that probably would include serious sprains too -- anything which puts one on crutches even for a day or wanting to go for a checkup with a doctor probably counts as an injury.

Similarly, a DZ I went to reported first jump injury rates of "about one a season" when doing 300-350 first AFF's a year.

I would expect the risk to go down a fair bit after the first half dozen jumps, once the basics of flaring are learned.

Although for some people, it doesn't become natural for quite a while longer. So one's risk over 25 jumps is probably not based on a 1 in 250 injury rate per jumps, which would be biased more towards all AFF students including those who only do 1 jump or under ten, without continuing to a license. (E.g, 1 in 250 risk would be .996^25 for 25 jumps = 10 % chance of injury before getting licensed. Sounds too high.)

It isn't uncommon for a student to be a little sore after some landing of theirs, but to actually break something is rare.

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garyhugo

Hi! Total newbie here. Four tandems last year. AFF & A-License this year (Hopefully!).

Through my DZ's Facebook group, I've been able to meet a few other newbies. One of which broke her leg in two places just this past Saturday. [:/]

I can't help but wonder... Does anyone have a sense of how many (or what % of) AFF students suffer a major injury before obtaining their A-License?



I would encourage you to become a student of skydiving, instead of a student skydiver.

What do I mean? Make it your goal in life to understand (as much as possible) what you are doing before you go out and do it.

Not long ago I was visiting a DZ and heard someone ask for a gear check. The person giving the gear check asked a question about the RSL. The jumper could not explain what it was or when it might need to be disconnected. I don't know if the jumper was a solo practicing student or a newly licensed jumper. In either case, they should have known what the RSL was and how it might save them or kill/hurt them.

If a person was equally ignorant about how to fly and land the canopy (as much as this one was about the RSL), the odds of such a person getting hurt would be much higher than the average. Don't be like that.

Read books, ask instructors questions, watch other students land (and make mistakes), learn about their problems, and learn more than just enough to get by.

Have fun.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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garyhugo


My whuffo wife has been pretty understanding so far, but if I break something before my A-License I imagine she'd be none too pleased! :|



The "what happens if" question is a good one to have with your spouse, whether it's before A license or after. Of course, it's a good discussion for partners to have no matter what, but things like choosing to enter a high-risk sport, or facing a life-threatening illness do tend to force the discussion. :D

What happens to your family's income if you have an injury like a broken ankle? Can you continue to work if you're on crutches, or do you have the type of job where you'll need to take off the full time to recovery? What type of income protections would you have in place if you couldn't work? (Sick time, disability insurance, etc.). What about your share of the work to run your household? Take care of kids/animals/other dependents? Marriage is a partnership... make sure you and your partner are on the same page if you're adding new risks to your life.

None of this is to say "don't do it," but it's respectful and mature to give the increased risk some thought beforehand.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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dthames

I would encourage you to become a student of skydiving, instead of a student skydiver.



Can you offer some suggestion? I've been doing my best to do exactly this. I have Skydiver's Handbook, Survival Guide, Jump, Above All Else (which is awesome) and ordered USPA's SIMS manual today. I have a small pile of DVDs, but I could really use some suggestions, please. And thanks.

NWFlyer

...make sure you and your partner are on the same page if you're adding new risks to your life.



Yeah, unfortunately, that's been a bumpy road. I said she'd be "None too pleased" if I broke something before my A-license, but she's really none too pleased now. She's coming around though, as I explain how safe it is. :);)

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Quote

She's coming around though, as I explain how safe it is.



Anyone that tells you skydiving is safe is either trying to sell you something or a fool.

Skydiving is not safe. You can do everything right and still die.

What skydiving is in reality is mitigated risk. We start on big docile gear and pull high. We have a back up parachute. If we are unable to pull for ourselves, we have a safety device that might save our life. But even with all this, we are throwing ourselves out of a plane for fun. So don't kid yourself thinking this is safe.

Educate yourself about your gear, canopy flight and make your emergency procedures so ingrained in muscle memory you do it in your dreams.

And have fun.:)
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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garyhugo

*** I would encourage you to become a student of skydiving, instead of a student skydiver.



Can you offer some suggestion? I've been doing my best to do exactly this. I have Skydiver's Handbook, Survival Guide, Jump, Above All Else (which is awesome) and ordered USPA's SIMS manual today. I have a small pile of DVDs, but I could really use some suggestions, please. And thanks.

NWFlyer

...make sure you and your partner are on the same page if you're adding new risks to your life.



Yeah, unfortunately, that's been a bumpy road. I said she'd be "None too pleased" if I broke something before my A-license, but she's really none too pleased now. She's coming around though, as I explain how safe it is. :);)

Not really "safe". Take your wife to the DZ and help enlighten her as much as you can.

"A Parachute And It's Pilot" is a good book.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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monkycndo

Quote

She's coming around though, as I explain how safe it is.



Anyone that tells you skydiving is safe is either trying to sell you something or a fool.

Skydiving is not safe. You can do everything right and still die.

What skydiving is in reality is mitigated risk. We start on big docile gear and pull high. We have a back up parachute. If we are unable to pull for ourselves, we have a safety device that might save our life. But even with all this, we are throwing ourselves out of a plane for fun. So don't kid yourself thinking this is safe.

Educate yourself about your gear, canopy flight and make your emergency procedures so ingrained in muscle memory you do it in your dreams.

And have fun.:)


I know this, but have never seen it put in such a concise statement. This is a keeper.

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garyhugo

as I explain how safe it is. :);)



Well Gary you did double-smiley that statement so between that and the pile of books you got, you've probably figured out that it isn't entirely risk free....

The following recent thread goes into a lot of the issues around what to do if family members aren't happy, plus risks and planning for injuries, although there are no simple solutions:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4697143;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
("First AFF, Questioning My Choice" in the Women's forum)

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garyhugo......An idea that may/may not be applicable to you, is encourage her pursuit of active sports that she likes, whether "bombing" the downhill's on a mountain bike, skiing out abounds in back bowls, martial arts, climbing, water skiing, etc. I don't wish an injury on your wife, but very few active people are able to go through life with a horse shoe up their ass, and if by some remote chance they do, they are likely to get run over by a "blue hair" as they innocently cross the street or some other such catastrophe. Such are life's unpredictability's. The difference is that not all of the above listed activities will kill you. However, if she is active, you both can help each other through your injury time outs, with understanding and tolerance of the extra work load that may be needed till rehabbed. I wish you both well going forward.

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I second the suggestion to read the other thread. Also:

Physical fitness and flexibility helps prevent injuries in all aspects of life and definitely helps when learning to land a parachute. Spend extra time learning to PLF, and then do a PLF when landing, even if you 'think' you can stand it up.

Learn, and then explain the safety precautions for gear and emergency procedures to your wife, and then demonstrate exactly how you will land to keep your body safe. That should provide her with a decent understanding of how you will mitigate the risk in this sport. She might want to attend a first jump course for information purposes. Get her involved with your desire to jump - what fires up that passion for you? What safety considerations are you going to make as you progress by using conservative gear, consistently deploying at a conservative altitude to give yourself more time to fix/react to a malfunction, and practicing complete emergency procedures every x amount of time?

I have a friend whose wife doesn't jump, but who is knowledgeable enough that she approves his canopy choices, reserve sizes, snd when its time for new or updated equipment. She comes to the dz sometimes and even to boogies and hangs out, and then they do something together that she wants to do, like going shopping or to an amusement park. It can work.

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Read books, ask instructors questions, watch other students land (and make mistakes), learn about their problems, and learn more than just enough to get by.

I did that!! read lots of books asked lots of question and then got banned from AFF (me thinks I researched equipment like skyhook too much) its a fact that if you ask too many questions its easier to just get rid of you..(At NAGGAS anyway) AM I RIGHT DON !!


dthames

***Hi! Total newbie here. Four tandems last year. AFF & A-License this year (Hopefully!).

Through my DZ's Facebook group, I've been able to I would encourage you to become a student of skydiving, instead of a student skydiver.

What do I mean? Make it your goal in life to understand (as much as possible) what you are doing before you go out and do it.

Not long ago I was visiting a DZ and heard someone ask for a gear check. The person giving the gear check asked a question about the RSL. The jumper could not explain what it was or when it might need to be disconnected. I don't know if the jumper was a solo practicing student or a newly licensed jumper. In either case, they should have known what the RSL was and how it might save them or kill/hurt them.

If a person was equally ignorant about how to fly and land the canopy (as much as this one was about the RSL), the odds of such a person getting hurt would be much higher than the average. Don't be like that.

Read books, ask instructors questions, watch other students land (and make mistakes), learn about their problems, and learn more than just enough to get by.

Have fun.


I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

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gregpso


I did that!! read lots of books asked lots of question and then got banned from AFF (me thinks I researched equipment like skyhook too much) its a fact that if you ask too many questions its easier to just get rid of you..(At NAGGAS anyway) AM I RIGHT DON !!

no.
Being stubborn and acting like a dick got you banned.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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I had a lot of these issues with my wife when I started
Did a tandem and "asked forgiveness instead of permission"... then I signed up for AFF and she was still OK but at some point decided she was not, started making it uncomfortable for me to go finish AFF, and I never completed it.

Now she realizes I'm a "safety nut" but like calculated risk. She keeps encouraging me to go again. What changed? She ran into a friend of hers that she didn't know was a skydiver. the woman is in her 60's, couple thousand jumps, and works as a nurse anaesthetist at her hospital. She talked about risk, mitigation, the physics and differences in "different kinds of risk takers". Now my wife would rather me do the skydiving than the paragliding I took up instead. Considers paragliding too much risk now. Go figure.

Anyhow, information breeds comfort. You should get informed, your wife should as well. It is no joke a lot of risk. But nobody gets out of life alive. I see people dying in my ER every day. Mostly from smoking, obesity, diabetes, and outright stupidity. My advice is: go live, don't just slowly die.
You are not the contents of your wallet.

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I will second the suggestion of, "The Parachute and its Pilot"' by Germain. He teaches many courses and has instructional videos on his website.

The comment about being a "Student of Skydiving" is the best I've heard. If you seek out knowledge, either from books, online, or shooting the shit around the campfire, you will go far. People who do only the bare minimum requirements and rush to get to the "fun stuff" frequently never make it that far. You must respect the fact that the vast majority of accidents in skydiving are caused by operator error and educate yourself accordingly. When you're alone in the sky, your mind, your training and knowledge are the only resources you have.

Opinions from a longtime Student of Skydiving.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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