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adamgoodsell46

Speed Flying: Great for canopy control and great fun!

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I know a lot of skydivers are interested in speed flying and as someone who had done 6 hours of tunnel and only had 80 jumps, I know that speed flying greatly improved my canopy skills. Also as new jumpers may feel the heat of that big hole in your pocket called lift tickets, speed flying is cool because you get to climb the mountain and fly down for free. But as compared to base I believe you have mitigated a ton of the risk involved by launching with an already good canopy above your head. That being said you can take the risk as high as you want to ie. close terrain flying, barrel rolls, etc. Anyways this is one of my favorite training grounds in the United States and I thought I'd share the place with you. It's called Soboba Flight Park and is located in southern California with great instructors on staff for an easy transition to learning how to speed fly. Hope you enjoy the video and I hope that some of you check this place out :) Cheers! https://www.youtube.com/embed/HOTUuieNtoQ

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Thanks for sharing man. Are there any more speed flying schools in the US? I really dig this and it'd be a dream of mine to learn how. In my back yard there is a ~35 degree hill completely bare meadow that runs down 500'-600' over about 200'-250' vertical rise not sure if that is a big enough hill to do anything with but man it'd be great to practice on those off days.

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Please don't take this the wrong way - it's possible you are just really enthusiastic about your subject and joined the forum to share the love.

But when a person's first post here is talking about how great a commercial service is, eyebrows tend to get raised.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I would argue that while speed flying is fun you are still close the ground. I've met more than a few people that have busted them selves up speed flying. I think CRW is a much safer way to learn canopy control, we do everything up high.
diamonds are a dawgs best friend

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gunsmokex

Thanks for sharing man. Are there any more speed flying schools in the US? I really dig this and it'd be a dream of mine to learn how. In my back yard there is a ~35 degree hill completely bare meadow that runs down 500'-600' over about 200'-250' vertical rise not sure if that is a big enough hill to do anything with but man it'd be great to practice on those off days.



500 over 250 would be perfect at a 2 to 1 glide. 600 over 200 would be cutting it kind of close at a 3 to 1 with some of the smaller wings but still doable. At a 3 to 1 it'd be pretty fun on a bigger wing like a firefly at 16m (169 Sq ft if I remember correctly). I know i launched a paraglider a couple of times before teaching myself to speed fly but I know that some places will start you on a 16m. It depends on the amount of wind. If you're thinking about teaching yourself it is doable depending on the person and I'd hate to advise anyone to do that over the internet as its obviously higher risk.

And yes there are places all over the country that teach it. A good one out at the point of the mountain in Utah. If you go I'd talk to Gary. Up in Washington there's a place in Chelan. And out in southern California my personal favorite at Soboba where I was able to get in about a hundred 800-1500' vert flights in less than a months time which is pretty much unheard of anywhere else. Or if you're near Boulder Colorado there's a good place where I taught myself for my first 50 flights in about a month at 600ft vert. So yes there are many options all over the country. You can add me on facebook if you have anymore questions and I can point you to some people who are actually currently in the states and have more information. Hope that helps! Cheers!

Adam Goodsell.

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JohnnyMarko

I think you need more GoPros

And more footage of you and your underage buddies rapping and drinking holding shitty booze



I'm not sure about the drinking.
If you look at 33 seconds in the video, it looks like he is faking it.

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u dont mitigate gate the risk by flying a good canopy above your head.....even launching can be very dangerous it doesn't always go to plan.....i nearly got killed just from a launch gone wrong i hit the deck hard broke my legs and ankles badly also my arm plus having a femur sticking out sucks trust me........anyone can start skydiving fairly safely and its easy....speedwings are a different breed i would suggest flying paragliders first as there more realated to it.....
speedflying is to Paragliding as BASE jumping is to Skydiving
FTMC

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skez

speedwings are a different breed i would suggest flying paragliders first as there more realated to it.....
speedflying is to Paragliding as BASE jumping is to Skydiving




You're never going to be able to convince the beginners of this... I've been saying it for about 7 or 8 years now.

Speedflying is NOT the place to learn canopy skills. You should have a really solid canopy foundation first and then transition.
If you're going to fly speed wings, rather than skydiving crossovers, you should get some basic paraglider time first too - they handle extremely differently.
Groundhandling is another skill which many skydivers miss.


Soboba is cool. I think I was the first person to speak with them about speedflying about 5 years ago when I first came to the US. I love that they've taken it and run with it, and that the paragliders there welcomed the sport.
Many other paragliding operations I've approached have had a 'this is our turf' mentality.

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"I believe you have mitigated a ton of the risk involved by launching with an already good canopy above your head."

This is incorrect. There's a speed flying fatality list, you know.

I've done a lot of speed flying and it is really great, but you'd be foolish to underestimate it.

I'm jealous of your hard-core rock 'n roll party lifestyle. You are obviously very cool and I'm looking forward to your athlete page on FB.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

"I believe you have mitigated a ton of the risk involved by launching with an already good canopy above your head."

This is incorrect. There's a speed flying fatality list, you know.

I've done a lot of speed flying and it is really great, but you'd be foolish to underestimate it.

I'm jealous of your hard-core rock 'n roll party lifestyle. You are obviously very cool and I'm looking forward to your athlete page on FB.



Just because there is a fatality list doesn't mean that there is no mitigation of risk by having an open canopy in comparison to BASE. Just because people die driving a car doesn't mean that there is no mitigation of risk by wearing a seat belt. Just because we drink captain morgan doesn't make us cool. We were already cool. :D Joking aside I did not intend this to be a calling to beginners hey, pick up a small wing, come run off some cliffs, ALL risk is mitigated. I won't say that and didn't think my post needed to be idiot proof to understand that. A little bit of common sense goes a long way in all of these sports. Of course progression is going to be the best way to learn.

That being said, in regards to the post on canopy control I wholeheartedly believe speed flying to be great for canopy control and believe this should be as obvious as day. All it is is canopy control, from kiting on the ground (which both beginners and experts should practice often) to flying in the sky. Does that mean you should be buzzing the ground your first time out? Again I am going to idiot proof my post. NO. It does not. Should an 90 sq ft canopy be your first wing NO. It should not. I think a little bit of common sense here goes a long way toward everyone's learning.

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Quote

Just because there is a fatality list doesn't mean that there is no mitigation of risk by having an open canopy in comparison to BASE.



You are comparing apples and oranges.

It's a bit like saying, "Driving is safer than flying because you've already landed safely on the ground." Okay...

To say that speed flying "mitigates" a long list of irrelevant risks is disingenuous. Speed flying is very dangerous, and highly risky. Not because you'll get a canopy mal during deployment (though you can certainly get one during flight), but for a whole slew of other factors that are not present in sky and BASE jumping. You ever have a BASE canopy fold under on you during a barrel roll? Didn't think so.

I get it, speed flying is fun. So is BASE. So is skydiving. But they are all very different and so are the associated risks. Approach each of them cautiously if you're interested in keeping your legs intact.

Ground handling and flying in proximity to the ground are definitely beneficial to canopy skills. I'm with you 100% there. I'm a prime beneficiary of this fact having started speed flying with only 40 skydives.

That said, presenting it as a cheap and relatively low risk way to learn canopy skills is misleading in my view. That is my point.

No hard feelings buddy.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Is it called something different if a person uses a docile skydiving canopy?

Why should ground launching be assumed to lead to speed flying? From how you describe it, it is implied that a person would naturally want to go fast, similar to how it is often assumed that a skydiver will want to get to a high wingload in a hurry.

After all, what kind of a strange person would be happy with a 1.0 or 1.1 wingload? I'll tell you what kind, a person that likes to be able to walk without a limp after many decades of jumping, and a person that likes to be able to easily land in small spaces when the spot is lousy.

Isn't it enough that ground launching can allow someone to get comfortable with the handling of and practice landings under the same type and size of canopy they use for skydiving?

Perhaps you don't mean to imply what I have perceived.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Some of the most experienced canopy pilots in the world have died with good canopies over their head. It happens fairly regularly, actually. Getting a good canopy over your head is really one of the smallest risks/concerns in most canopy flight related sports, so removing that risk is not as big of a selling point as you seem to think it is.

In nearly all aviation pursuits, incidents happen when you are close to the ground. Speedflying, by definition, increases your time spent close to the ground, therefore statistically increase your risk exposure. Yes, it's still possible to minimize this risk. But no, it is not in general a low-risk alternative to traditional methods for learning canopy skills such as CRW or accuracy.

And when the ground you're close to is steep variable terrain littered with boulders, my points above hold even more true. I can't argue with the post title; it is probably great for both canopy control and fun. And it's certainly cheaper than skydiving. But far from the safest way to learn those skills, and safety is worth a higher dollar cost IMO.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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adamgoodsell46

I would highly suggest not ground launching a skydiving canopy and learning how to launch a speed wing instead. They are going to launch much better, perform better, creating an overall safer wing as they are specifically designed for ground launching.



its actually fairly easy to ground launch a docile square skydiving canopy....way less of a handful then a elliptical touchy speedwing....i know a few ppl that learnt to ground launch 7 cell ravens etc that have never skydived...theres no way learning on a speedwing would have been safer its just stupid....and even if an amateur succefully launched a speedwing they are now flying a touchy highy responsive wing
long story short u can get hurt doing anything just dont try to tell people a speedwing is a good learning tool people will get hurt or killed as many have already.....
FTMC

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adamgoodsell46

All it is is canopy control, from kiting on the ground (which both beginners and experts should practice often) to flying in the sky.



You get a shitload more of that with paragliding, without the close proximity to hard stuff. Just saying.
Also, speedflying canopies and skydiving canopies have behavioural differences that pilots should be aware of (with some exceptions).
Having the wing above your head doesn't mitigate risk, it just changes what the predominant risks are.

That said, can't disagree with the fact that both paragliding and its offspring, speedflying are a lot of fun.
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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JWest

It's like skydiving, you don't start on a highly loaded elliptical. You start on full size paraglider and work your way down to a speedwing.



I just want to point out in order to keep as much correct information in this thread as possible, that a paraglider is going to have much different characteristics from a skydiving canopy and a much higher aspect ratio than a speed wing. In modern speedwings, the fazer is much closer to a skydiving canopy than a paraglider. A p.g. will be more elliptical, and can collapse, while a fazer will be more square and boxing and will be about just as hard to collapse as a skydiving canopy. Many/most skydivers transition from a similar sized skydiving wing to a speedwing with proper training.

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JWest

It's like skydiving, you don't start on a highly loaded elliptical. You start on full size paraglider and work your way down to a speedwing.



I just want to point out in order to keep as much correct information in this thread as possible, that a paraglider is going to have much different characteristics from a skydiving canopy and a much higher aspect ratio than a speed wing. In modern speedwings, the fazer is much closer to a skydiving canopy than a paraglider. A p.g. will be more elliptical, and can collapse, while a fazer will be more square and boxy and will be about just as hard to collapse as a skydiving canopy. Many/most skydivers transition from a similar sized skydiving wing to a speedwing with proper training.

That said you can get a very eliptical high aspect ratio speed wing if that's what you're into too.

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adamgoodsell46

I would highly suggest not ground launching a skydiving canopy and learning how to launch a speed wing instead. They are going to launch much better, perform better, creating an overall safer wing as they are specifically designed for ground launching.



A popular speedflying instructor that I learned from commonly starts experienced skydivers on Stilettos before moving them to proper speedwings. I myself learned to launch on a Stiletto 135 before moving to smaller speedwings which require more delicate inputs.

He's an OG speedflyer...one who helped invent and popularize the sport (probably before you could even walk). I trust that his views here are based on a larger data set than your own.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Learning to speedfly on a Stiletto 135 is completely ridiculous at this time given the gear available. Even a relatively flat flying skydiving canopy has at best a glide ratio around 2-2.5:1. Speedfly canopies have about twice this glide, not to mention the rear riser trim tabs and other features which improve safety.

I personally think skydivers should learn to paraglide before speedflying as the skillset required to assess and launch wings on foot safely in a variety of sites and conditions is not something most of us inherently possess.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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Glide ratio is only important as it relates to the terrain. On steep terrain, sky canopies launch and fly just fine.

Paragliding is stupid. That is my official response to anyone who thinks you need a P license before flying a speedwing.
Apex BASE
#1816

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