Mass Shooter Profile Article

[wmw999 2,120]

I just read this; there's food for thought. The researchers have spent significant time studying this by actually studying the perpetrators, and talking to ones who survived -- not just tut-tutting about the bad things they did. It's in Politico, which tends very left, but sometimes there's message in stuff you don't always agree with.

I also read a great editorial in the NY Times on how populism is coopting the right with the reduction in religiosity -- and how that's also translating into the morphing of conservatism in the US. It's written by a fellow at National Review, so he's not exactly studying this from the outside.

Anyway, the mass shooter article: Stopping Mass Shooters

Wendy P.

[DougH 270]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

I just read this; there's food for thought. The researchers have spent significant time studying this by actually studying the perpetrators, and talking to ones who survived -- not just tut-tutting about the bad things they did. It's in Politico, which tends very left, but sometimes there's message in stuff you don't always agree with.

This was a good article, thanks for sharing.

I have held a general belief for a while that we are all collectively contributing to the incidence of people turning into these mass shooters because of certain societal failings; child welfare systems failing kids, poor parenting, school system failures, our failure to get a handle on bullying, the increase in social isolation.

It also isn't surprising to me that we aren't identifying these people until it is to late, again because of those same failures.

The article discusses mentions that the Buffalo shooter told his teacher that he wanted to commit a murder suicide. This was in a state with red flag laws, tough gun laws, and a statement made directly to a person of authority, not just anonymous ramblings on a Facebook messenger group. That sounds like the conditions you need to stop this sort of thing, and yet the warning signs were ignored, so something has to change.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by DougH

[riggerrob 558]

Good article and I agree 100 percent with the authors, perhaps because I contemplated carrying a gun to elementary school.

I was picked upon as a loner. My grade 2 teacher always used me as a bad example "to encourage the others." Half of the time I spent kneeling in the corner of the classroom, I wondered what crime I had committed.

The same group of 5 or 6 bullies waited for me beside the (open air) hockey rink every day at lunch time. Deep snow drifts closed most other routes home. Even though I knew that half of what the bullies said was inaccurate, after a few hundred times, I gauled at my soul. My brothers often ganged up against me at bed time. My parents frequently spanked me ... often for sins committed by my siblings. I was miserable and depressed. I tried complaining to my mother, but she was too busy with my younger brother and sister. My younger brother had health problems.

I mentally picked out a .22 caliber semi-automatic pistol from my father's collection (hint: my father was a member of the Canadian Olympic shooting team). I plotted how I would carry the pistol in my bag, then pull it out when confronted by the gang of bullies. I would tell them to "leave me alone." If they persisted in tormenting me, I planed to shoot each of them once in the belly.

Then I contemplated the aftermath. I knew that I would be thrown in jail ... a jail already full of juvenile bullies. I also knew that no adult would listen seriously to my problems ... so shooting bullies would not solve any of my problems ... only make my problems worse.

I never contemplated suicide when I was in elementary school. Suicide did not cross my mind until many years later. Suicide is a story for another day.

 

[Bigfalls 110]

Before I even read the article, I was thinking the shooters were suicidal and wanted to be famous.  Good article

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:14 AM, wmw999 said:

I just read this; there's food for thought. The researchers have spent significant time studying this by actually studying the perpetrators, and talking to ones who survived -- not just tut-tutting about the bad things they did. It's in Politico, which tends very left, but sometimes there's message in stuff you don't always agree with.

I also read a great editorial in the NY Times on how populism is coopting the right with the reduction in religiosity -- and how that's also translating into the morphing of conservatism in the US. It's written by a fellow at National Review, so he's not exactly studying this from the outside.

Anyway, the mass shooter article: Stopping Mass Shooters

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for that; it is interesting reading.

My concern is everyone, even Moscow Mitch, is jumping on the bandwagon of mental health.  So, I ask:  Which of the mass shooters this year would have not passed a mental health exam?

From your link:  The Buffalo shooter told his teacher that he was going to commit a murder-suicide after he graduated.

If the teacher does nothing when she/he learns this, then just what will work?

Until my mind is changed, I've given up on 'dealing with mental health issues' being what can stop this carnage.

Jerry Baumchen 

[kallend 1,622]

4 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for that; it is interesting reading.

My concern is everyone, even Moscow Mitch, is jumping on the bandwagon of mental health.  So, I ask:  Which of the mass shooters this year would have not passed a mental health exam?

From your link:  The Buffalo shooter told his teacher that he was going to commit a murder-suicide after he graduated.

If the teacher does nothing when she/he learns this, then just what will work?

Until my mind is changed, I've given up on 'dealing with mental health issues' being what can stop this carnage.

Jerry Baumchen 

If every teenager who says something stupid to a teacher gets sent for a mental health eval, we will need to train a boatload more psychiatrists.

[billvon 2,392]

26 minutes ago, kallend said:

If every teenager who says something stupid to a teacher gets sent for a mental health eval, we will need to train a boatload more psychiatrists.

And/or counselors, school psychologists and primary care doctors with training in mental health assessments. 

And honestly, that would not be the end of the world.

[Phil1111 910]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

And/or counselors, school psychologists and primary care doctors with training in mental health assessments. 

And honestly, that would not be the end of the world.

It would in Texas

"UVALDE, Texas — Even as they scheduled graduation parties and made plans to move for college or start new jobs, seniors at Uvalde High School sometimes found themselves thinking back to 2018, when two of their eighth-grade classmates had been charged with plotting a mass shooting.

The two boys planned an attack on the anniversary of the 1999 Columbine High School shooting, the police said, researching how to make explosive devices and creating a list of students they wanted to kill. They had originally planned their attack for 2022, in the spring of their senior year, but the plot was foiled and the two boys, 13 and 14, were arrested.

Then, four years later, the unimaginable happened: Another student from the same class charged into an elementary school with an AR-15-style rifle, killing 19 children and two teachers in one of the deadliest school shootings in U.S. history.

How a town of barely 15,000 people could have had two mass shooting plots in four years — both emerging out of the Uvalde High School class of 2022"

Edited June 8, 2022 by Phil1111

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

15 hours ago, kallend said:

If every teenager who says something stupid to a teacher gets sent for a mental health eval, we will need to train a boatload more psychiatrists.

Hi John,

While some may disagree, I do not consider these two things to be of the same importance:

 told his teacher that he was going to commit a murder-suicide

who says something stupid to a teacher

Jerry Baumchen

[DougH 270]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:02 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

  So, I ask:  Which of the mass shooters this year would have not passed a mental health exam?

Fair question. We would probably need a few experienced psychiatrists and psychologists to weight in.

I think the author's of Wendy's article would lean towards an answer of maybe, since their premise is that most of these individuals aren't psychopaths or monsters, and are instead isolated angry young men that got to this terrible tipping point over time.

I guess it comes down to whether they are so calculated that they would present the persona of a happy untroubled person, or whether their troubled nature would come through in their answers and interactions.

Some combination of a well designed psychiatric evaluation, personal references, and more thorough background check would be better than nothing. I would be on board as a gun owner, as long as it was designed to offer due process and an appropriate appeal process. Realistically I don't think we will ever see a system like that put in place.

Obviously not this year, but I don't see how Adam Lanza would have passed a mental health exam and references they were required to purchase is own firearm, but he had access to his mother's firearms.  https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/21/justice/newtown-shooter-adam-lanza-report/index.html Lots of red flags missed there, failures on all levels, and horrible parenting.

On 6/7/2022 at 6:02 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

From your link:  The Buffalo shooter told his teacher that he was going to commit a murder-suicide after he graduated.

If the teacher does nothing when she/he learns this, then just what will work?

Until my mind is changed, I've given up on 'dealing with mental health issues' being what can stop this carnage.

That was the last warning sign, but how many things contributed to getting to that point over the past few years that may have offered opportunities for intervention.

I would like to believe, admittedly with no basis, that there were other indications that this individual was struggling with addressable issues and circumstances.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by DougH

[wmw999 2,120]

I was reading an article today that made it clear that the Uvalde shooter was known to be troubled — among other things, he was in the same grade as two boys who planned a Columbine-style event in eighth grade. They were discovered, and just never came back to school. But this article said something to the effect that in town, people said “who let him purchase a gun?”

Maybe some people shouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt — that’s hard for me to say, but such is life  

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,904]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

But this article said something to the effect that in town, people said “who let him purchase a gun?”

That would be the SCOTUS.

[Phil1111 910]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

That would be the SCOTUS.

I wonder if all of the USSC judges had to live in undergound bunkers. With massive security armed up the ying-yang. Just to keep them alive from all the armed nuts running around.

If they'd change their minds about guns and the constitution.

Nah, silly idea.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

11 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I wonder if all of the USSC judges had to live in undergound bunkers. With massive security armed up the ying-yang. Just to keep them alive from all the armed nuts running around.

If they'd change their minds about guns and the constitution.

Nah, silly idea.

I reckon they'd re-interpret the constitution to a more originalist, textual reading of the second amendment to mean not one but two well regulated militias; one to protect us from the other.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

4 hours ago, DougH said:

Fair question. We would probably need a few experienced psychiatrists and psychologists to weight in.

I think the author's of Wendy's article would lean towards an answer of maybe, since their premise is that most of these individuals aren't psychopaths or monsters, and are instead isolated angry young men that got to this terrible tipping point over time.

I guess it comes down to whether they are so calculated that they would present the persona of a happy untroubled person, or whether their troubled nature would come through in their answers and interactions.

Some combination of a well designed psychiatric evaluation, personal references, and more thorough background check would be better than nothing. I would be on board as a gun owner, as long as it was designed to offer due process and an appropriate appeal process. Realistically I don't think we will ever see a system like that put in place.

Obviously not this year, but I don't see how Adam Lanza would have passed a mental health exam and references they were required to purchase is own firearm, but he had access to his mother's firearms.  https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/21/justice/newtown-shooter-adam-lanza-report/index.html Lots of red flags missed there, failures on all levels, and horrible parenting.

That was the last warning sign, but how many things contributed to getting to that point over the past few years that may have offered opportunities for intervention.

I would like to believe, admittedly with no basis, that there were other indications that this individual was struggling with addressable issues and circumstances.

 

Hi Doug,

Thank you for that well-reasoned reply.

Re:  are instead isolated angry young men that got to this terrible tipping point over time.

I think this is exactly what is going on.  

And, that is why I say that this is NOT a mental health issue. 

This whole 'mental health issue' is just another way for both parties to not have to deal with the real issues; one being the easy access to guns.

IMO we simply have to take away these guns that, in truth, are weapons of war.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[gowlerk 1,904]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

I wonder if all of the USSC judges had to live in undergound bunkers. With massive security armed up the ying-yang. Just to keep them alive from all the armed nuts running around.

If they'd change their minds about guns and the constitution.

Nah, silly idea.

That is basically the situation that will need to prevail before real change happens. When the elites feel threatened enough the 2nd will be scrapped or re-interpreted. I have said this at least a couple times in this forum.

[billvon 2,392]

51 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That is basically the situation that will need to prevail before real change happens. When the elites feel threatened enough the 2nd will be scrapped or re-interpreted.

It's happened before.

[DougH 270]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I think this is exactly what is going on.  

And, that is why I say that this is NOT a mental health issue. 

Isn't that the definition of a potentially addressable mental health issue? I am not a medical professional, but I would classify wanting to commit suicide in a grand manner, and murder a bunch of people in the process, as a mental health issue.

I will concede that it isn't only a mental health issue, it is a societal issue too, and that neither are going to be easily solved. 

From the mental health aspect I see two opportunities.

• Can you get these mass shooters help during the course of their life before they get to this point? The systems and resources required to do this would benefit all of our youth. It would help the reduce the rates of depression and suicide among children.
• Can you figure out a way to identify these individuals and limit their access to purchase and obtain firearms.

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

This whole 'mental health issue' is just another way for both parties to not have to deal with the real issues; one being the easy access to guns.

IMO we simply have to take away these guns that, in truth, are weapons of war.

I struggle with addressing this because I simply don't think it is realistic that we will see laws passed that result in a meaningful reduction in the easy access to guns, at least not broadly, because of the political calculus.

There is also the issue of the guns already in private ownership. The expired AWB from 1994 grandfathered firearms that would be otherwise banned, and any new law would have to do the same. Our constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws that don't provide for grandfathering.

Aside from taking away guns, are there specific gun laws that you think would have a reasonable chance of being implemented, that would help reduce these terrible shootings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

48 minutes ago, DougH said:

Isn't that the definition of a potentially addressable mental health issue? I am not a medical professional, but I would classify wanting to commit suicide in a grand manner, and murder a bunch of people in the process, as a mental health issue.

I will concede that it isn't only a mental health issue, it is a societal issue too, and that neither are going to be easily solved. 

From the mental health aspect I see two opportunities.

• Can you get these mass shooters help during the course of their life before they get to this point? The systems and resources required to do this would benefit all of our youth. It would help the reduce the rates of depression and suicide among children.
• Can you figure out a way to identify these individuals and limit their access to purchase and obtain firearms.

I struggle with addressing this because I simply don't think it is realistic that we will see laws passed that result in a meaningful reduction in the easy access to guns, at least not broadly, because of the political calculus.

There is also the issue of the guns already in private ownership. The expired AWB from 1994 grandfathered firearms that would be otherwise banned, and any new law would have to do the same. Our constitution expressly forbids ex post facto laws that don't provide for grandfathering.

Aside from taking away guns, are there specific gun laws that you think would have a reasonable chance of being implemented, that would help reduce these terrible shootings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Doug,

In a word:  No

The US House has just passed a bill to do 'something.'  I have read that it has no chance in Hell of the Senate going along with it.

Next?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Joe Weber has posted about imposing Draconian taxes on bullets.  I would be fine with that.

Here in Oregon, there is an effort to get a measure on the ballot that would limit the size of the magazine of a gun.  I would be fine with that.

The probability of either being approved is slim.

 

 

[DougH 270]

34 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Here in Oregon, there is an effort to get a measure on the ballot that would limit the size of the magazine of a gun.  I would be fine with that.

We have those laws in MA, along with a AWB tied to the 1994 Federal legislation.

You can still buy "pre-ban" rifles, and large capacity magazines; it just makes an old rifle or magazine, whether new old stock or well worn, much more expensive than what new products sell for elsewhere in the country. For example, 2-3k for an old Colt AR. Supply and demand.

Whether that contributes to lowering gun violence will probably depend on who you ask, but it probably doesn't make our state more prone to non-drug and gang related gun violence.

Edited June 9, 2022 by DougH

[ryoder 1,381]

36 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

PS)  Joe Weber has posted about imposing Draconian taxes on bullets.  I would be fine with that.

Like this?

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

37 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Like this?

 

Hi Robert,

Chris Rock is not someone I pay much attention ( I'm the really old guy here ), but this is more truth than farce.  I particularly liked the part where the shooter wanted his bullet back:  'You ain't keeping my property.'

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 558]

22 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Doug,

In a word:  No

The US House has just passed a bill to do 'something.'  I have read that it has no chance in Hell of the Senate going along with it.

Next?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Joe Weber has posted about imposing Draconian taxes on bullets.  I would be fine with that.

Here in Oregon, there is an effort to get a measure on the ballot that would limit the size of the magazine of a gun.  I would be fine with that.

The probability of either being approved is slim.

 

 

Canadian gun laws restrict pistol magazines to 10 rounds and long gun magazines to 5 rounds.

But there are so many loop holes (.22 caliber rifles, shotguns, etc.) that citizens have lost respect for the law. For example, Communist-surplus SKS carbines are readily available - partly because they are popular with natives who hunt for a living in Northern Canada - but AK-47s firing the same ammo are prohibited.

[riggerrob 558]

On 6/9/2022 at 10:35 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Doug,

Thank you for that well-reasoned reply.

Re:  are instead isolated angry young men that got to this terrible tipping point over time.

I think this is exactly what is going on.  

And, that is why I say that this is NOT a mental health issue. 

This whole 'mental health issue' is just another way for both parties to not have to deal with the real issues; one being the easy access to guns.

IMO we simply have to take away these guns that, in truth, are weapons of war.

Jerry Baumchen

 

One measure of a society is how it challenges/employs its angry young men. Does the society leave angry young men to fight out their difference sin a mosh pit?

... sad loners shooting up their schools?

... bar-room brawls?

... violent robbery?

... drug-selling street gangs shooting each other over turf?

... as soccer hooligans?

... stealing sheep from the neighboring tribe?

... enslaving the neighboring tribe?

... raping the neighboring tribe?

... massacring the neighboring tribe?

... invading a neighboring country?

... religious missionaries to deepest, darkest Africa?

... religious wars/jihads/crusades to re-claim the Holy Land?

... Peace Corps?

... Green Peace?

... Olympic sports?

... skydiving?