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Phil1111

Mental Health, Guns, Mental Health

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So the deadly combination of a deteriorated mental condition and guns has struck SC and DZ. Everything that Billy worked and dreamed of in 1/2 a century is now gone. Without doubt he faced challenges in his life and thought he could control the darker thoughts in his mind. But in the end he could not. In the space of a minute or two he faced a monster from within. The result was his whole beautiful family was destroyed.

When he finally called out for help it was too late. He realized what he and he alone had done to his family. That agonizing realization was too much for his mind to deal with. In the absence of a gun perhaps some sort of physical altercation would have resulted. Perhaps a verbal showdown that ended in divorce. Nobody knows of such possibilities.

Very sad.

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Please tread very carefully on this topic. There is nothing wrong with the OP in this thread, but just as actual participants on dz.com cannot be attacked, let’s not get too sanctimonious about this event. It’s sad, shocking, and personal to lots of people here. I never met BV in person, but yeah, he worked hard for his life. 

Wendy P. 

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4 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

.... It’s sad, shocking, and personal to lots of people here. I never met BV in person, but yeah, he worked hard for his life. 

Wendy P. 

Agree, this is a raw and painful subject. To interject sanctimonious ideas or statements into a circumstance where there are no positives. Benefits nobody.

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1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

Agree, this is a raw and painful subject. To interject sanctimonious ideas or statements into a circumstance where there are no positives. Benefits nobody.

On the other hand Ts and Ps are the traditional and completely useless response which also benefits no one. We don't actually know and probably can never know the motivation for these crimes so we speak of "mental illness". What does that even mean?

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9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

 We don't actually know and probably can never know the motivation for these crimes so we speak of "mental illness". What does that even mean?

"the mental disorder defense, is an affirmative defense by excuse in a criminal case, arguing that the defendant is not responsible for their actions due to an episodic or persistent psychiatric disease at the time of the criminal act. This is contrasted with an excuse of provocation, in which the defendant is responsible, but the responsibility is lessened due to a temporary mental state.[1]: 6"

I personally would have a very difficult time convicting a mother of a crime who killed her children due to Postpartum psychosis/depression. In the absence of other information/evidence I would not blame Billy whatsoever.

Suicide by gun is not uncommon. Without going further in the direction of killing your parents, siblings, family, discussions. IMO the presence of a deadly weapon which requires little action to initiate. Is the gas in the equation.

Discussion of mental health is for many a taboo subject. Especially for men. The macho male who can handle any discomfort, any challenge, is the very identity of many men. It defines them as a man.

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(edited)
9 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I would not blame Billy whatsoever.

I blame him 100% for the deaths of his family. And if you read the news story it makes it clear that he did as well and that he decided to end his life rather than face the consequences. There is nothing we know of that indicates any mental illness. Men kill for many reasons and domestic violence is common and often hidden. We will never know what was happening within that family. The witnesses were all murdered.

Edited by gowlerk
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2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I blame him 100% for the deaths of his family. And if you read the news story it makes it clear that he did as well and that he decided to end his life rather than face the consequences. There is nothing we know of that indicates any mental illness. Men kill for many reasons and domestic violence is common and often hidden. We will never know what was happening within that family. The witnesses were all murdered.

Well I did read the news story. The comments from everyone who admitted "knowing" the family was shock at the events. Billy killing himself has nothing to do with "facing the consequences". What consequences? His recent posts on guns talked about using guns to defend whats important to him. His family.

What you're saying is that psychiatry is bunk. That all minds are rational all the time.Logical.

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10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There is nothing we know of that indicates any mental illness.

And there is nothing we know of that indicated he was of sound mind at the time of the attack.  We don't know what was going on in his life, what drugs he was taking, and what the state of his mental health was.  We may never know.

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21 minutes ago, billvon said:

And there is nothing we know of that indicated he was of sound mind at the time of the attack.  We don't know what was going on in his life, what drugs he was taking, and what the state of his mental health was.  We may never know.

Agree. The recent "crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boeing 737 that went down in March in a remote area of Southeast China killing all 132 aboard was caused by human input" Will be examined in minute detail. With of course Chinese government meddling and coverup. Just as the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 was. In both these circumstances there were 1st class medical pilots involved. With the associated family, co-worker interviews, examinations, etc. Yet suicide, homicide arising from inexplicable circumstances. Was the psychological issue at hand. Of course there was also the case of Andreas Lubitz for which more information is known.

For Lubitz a closer connection to mental health and the outcome can be established. But in all these cases jobs involving physical and psychiatric monitoring of the health of the individual. Did nothing to prevent an intervention.

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In addition to what Wendy said, please don't turn Billy's death into a handy meme to be used whenever you want to "win" a Speaker's Corner argument.  He was a member of this forum and many people here knew him, and he deserves better than to be turned into a go-to argument.

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Being as careful as possible then, it’s a sad indictment of American gun culture and gun messaging that a person who was fully aware of their own tendencies towards depression, bipolar and stress, their bad financial situation, suicidal thoughts etc…. Still genuinely thought the safest thing to do was bring multiple loaded weapons into the house he shared with his family.

And there’s an enormous lobbying and media industry pushing that message onto more people every day.

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3 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

What you're saying is that psychiatry is bunk. That all minds are rational all the time.Logical.

No, that is not what I believe about psychiatry. What I am saying is that none of us have any reason to think that Billy had a psychiatric illness that would account for his actions. That does not mean he did not. Almost certainly he did not have a condition that would allow for a legal insanity defense. 

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4 hours ago, billvon said:

He was a member of this forum and many people here knew him, and he deserves better than to be turned into a go-to argument.

I would say that the fact that people knew him does not mean that he deserves anything at all from us. But I also believe that WE deserve better than having him turn into a go-to argument. 

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(edited)
6 hours ago, jakee said:

Being as careful as possible then, it’s a sad indictment of American gun culture and gun messaging that a person who was fully aware of their own tendencies towards depression, bipolar and stress, their bad financial situation, suicidal thoughts etc…. Still genuinely thought the safest thing to do was bring multiple loaded weapons into the house he shared with his family.

And there’s an enormous lobbying and media industry pushing that message onto more people every day.

There are many ways Billy could have achieved his goal.  Please don't...

Also, I enjoyed his posts here.  Edited comment. We’re not going there. 

Edited by wmw999

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38 minutes ago, airdvr said:

There are many ways Billy could have achieved his goal.  Please don't...

Name one that kills three people in their beds that a man can just impulsively do without a firearm. 

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(edited)
3 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

While I do agree that it is easier with a gun, Perry Smith did it with a knife.

In Cold Blood - Wikipedia

Jerry Baumchen

There were two men in that crime. It's been a long time since I read that book. Plus they were tied up, plus they were shot as well as some of them having their throats slit. 

Edited by gowlerk

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10 hours ago, billvon said:

In addition to what Wendy said, please don't turn Billy's death into a handy meme to be used whenever you want to "win" a Speaker's Corner argument.  He was a member of this forum and many people here knew him, and he deserves better than to be turned into a go-to argument.

But, with respect, that doesn't mean he gets a free pass.

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

There were two men in that crime. It's been a long time since I read that book. Plus they were tied up, plus they were shot as well as some of them having their throats slit. 

Hi Ken

Yup, two men in the crime; but, only Smith actually killed anyone.  The actual crime was Hickok's idea, Smith just went along; and, then did the actual killings.

And, yes they were tied up.  That is why I said it was easier with a gun.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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28 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I really could have gone forever without that thought. Between Billy and now the Texas massacre I am, actually I don't know what I am feeling. The reality is that if this societal cancer cannot be forever cured it is certain that we can alleviate the worst symptoms; and the worst of those symptoms is treating guns as if they were a type of religion. Instead of going to your gun club church this weekend, instead and in the name of sanity, cancel your membership.

People kill people. With or without guns.  9/11 showed us you need no guns to kill massive amounts of people. 

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6 minutes ago, DFWAJG said:

People kill people. With or without guns.  9/11 showed us you need no guns to kill massive amounts of people. 

Go back into your bubble. Kids don't buy airplanes on their 18th birthday and crash them into schools to get famous.

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5 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

While I do agree that it is easier with a gun, Perry Smith did it with a knife.

In Cold Blood - Wikipedia

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry my man, you don't have to read very far into that article to find this.

"Smith, notoriously unstable and prone to violent acts in fits of rage, slit Herb Clutter's throat and then shot him in the head. Capote writes that Smith recounted later, "I didn't want to harm the man. I thought he was a very nice gentleman. Soft-spoken. I thought so right up to the moment I cut his throat." Kenyon, Nancy, and then Mrs. Clutter were also murdered, each by a single shotgun blast to the head."

 

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6 hours ago, airdvr said:

There are many ways Billy could have achieved his goal.  Please don't...

None of them anywhere as easy for a guy in a single moment of impulsiveness. Not to mention that whatever hypotheticals you can conjure, killing his family with the guns he bought to keep them safe is what he actually did. That is the plain and unbending reality of the situation. So you don't, ok?

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Airdvr made a comment, too. He didn't give him a pass. I edited it. Billvon has been editing and hiding stuff too.

I'll lay it out -- let's not make it quite as personal. The shooting in Texas, mental health, lots of things. Let's not discuss the relative ease or lack thereof with people we know. And maybe I'm going too far with that, but the idea is not to get caught up in the personals. It doesn't do any good -- Billy's dead, and so is his family. I don't think there's anyone here who approves or even is remotely neutral.

In virtually all of the other situations (e.g. the recent Buffalo massacre, now the Texas one -- get the point?), we're angry at the situation, but we know it doesn't do any good to be personally angry at the perpetrator. We analyze the perp, talk about motivations, ease of acquiring weapons and whether that's OK.

I'm angry at the perpetrator. But it doesn't do any good.

Wendy P.

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