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Phil1111

Mental Health, Guns, Mental Health

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23 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

I guess that Oklahoma is not OK:  1 dead, 7 injured in Oklahoma festival shooting: officials - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Let's see - Do not attend elementary school - Do not attend festivals - Good grief, what is next?

As long as we're safe at the gun store buying our AR-15, 1000 rounds of ammo, and 13 banana clips there isn't a problem. In fairness, the gun gonzos are correct, it is a mental health issue; apparently holding an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine can make you insane. It must be true because, as we're incessantly told by the gun strokers, the child murderers showed no signs of illness beforehand. 

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2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

I guess that Oklahoma is not OK:  1 dead, 7 injured in Oklahoma festival shooting: officials - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Let's see - Do not attend elementary school - Do not attend festivals - Good grief, what is next?

 

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Don't go shopping, don't go to church. . . . . .

Skydiving is getting safer and safer every day!

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(edited)
On 5/30/2022 at 12:14 PM, riggerrob said:

Dear Kallend,

Are you suggesting regular refresher training?

... or perhaps fire "X" number of rounds per quarter to stay current?

... as recommended by the better military and law-enforcement firearms instructors?

I always found it amusing when Canadian gun clubs annually extended an "invitation" to hunters to "sight in" their rifles at the start of deer season. Practically, it was more like an excuse to remind hunters of which end the bullets came out. Hah! Hah!

I believe a US marine is required to attend a 2 week refresher course EVERY YEAR for firearms certification, with half of that being live fire exercises. And that's for someone who is formally trained. (correction welcome)

The civilian currency requirements should not be less than the military. (excluding military specific training scenarios)

Edit - that goes for LEOs too, IMO.

Edited by yoink
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(edited)
2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe Weber,

Are guns allowed at SDO?

Having never taken one there, I simply do not know.

Jerry Baumchen

Except for me on gopher patrol, No. I only recall once when some dumb ass showed up with a holstered gun and a Crocodile Dundee knife on his hip and he was told that he's on private property and it needs to be put away. Fortunately, one of our staff is a cop so he drew the duty.

Edited by JoeWeber

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25 minutes ago, yoink said:

I believe a US marine is required to attend a 2 week refresher course EVERY YEAR for firearms certification, with half of that being live fire exercises. And that's for someone who is formally trained. (correction welcome)

The civilian currency requirements should not be less than the military. (excluding military specific training scenarios)

Edit - that goes for LEOs too, IMO.

When I was on Base Security duty for NAS North Island San Diego, we shot 50 rounds monthly with quarterly quals testing on both the .45 and 12 gauge shotgun. I thought the .45 training was excellent but the shotgun was a bit redundant once you developed a good speed reloading technique. We were trained by a 2 man Marine Cadre who also trained the base civilian security force. Have both for home defense and try to stay current depending on the price of ammo.

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(edited)
On 5/29/2022 at 2:57 AM, rifleman said:

I asked this question in another thread but it seems appropriate to repeat it here:

How much of the current trend towards gun violence, particularly school shootings, can be attributed to the lack of universal healthcare (and ready access to free mental health services) in the US?

Here in the UK, we have a single payer, universal healthcare service where a person can self-refer for mental health support if required. We have organisations that actively campaign to destigmatise mental health issues and raise awareness of support networks and also have a charity supported scheme to train people in Mental Health First Aid.

From the site of one provider:
"They are trained to spot the early signs of mental ill-health in others. They are taught to confidently signpost someone to appropriate support, both internal and external, and they are equipped to deal with emergencies too - such as psychosis, thoughts of suicide, or attempted suicide."

Many workplaces now have Mental Health First Aiders alongside regular First Aiders, providing support to colleagues who are feeling the stress caused by COVID, the cost of living crisis and workplace related problems.

If you are someone who needs to believe it's not the guns but it's something else like healthcare, that is to say, uncared for mental derangement, you have a few hurdles to leap. The first hurdle is the constant exclamation that there was no prior indication of derangement by the perpetrators of these gun killings followed up by the assertion that even if there were heretofore unknown indications none would have been discovered by a common background check. So let's give you all of that but, to be fair, we'll assume that you would be keen on finding those unknown indications so we might prevent at least one mass shooting in the future. Great. You still have an empty bag.

 
So what about this potential indication: an 18 year old kid wants to buy two AR-15 style weapons, 1800 rounds of ammunition and a dozen or so high capacity magazines.  Is that an indication of potential mental instability? Is that something that should be halted until a little more investigation happens? Is that something a gun shop owner should deny by law or be held responsible for allowing? Is that a reason to have gun control laws?
 
That's the problem. Either you believe mental instability is the issue and can be seen or you just want to use it as a trope so you can ignore the horror of these mass shooting events.
 
Which one are you?
 
Edited by JoeWeber
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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you are someone who needs to believe it's not the guns but it's something else like healthcare, that is to say, uncared for mental derangement, you have a few hurdles to leap. The first hurdle is the constant exclamation that there was no prior indication of derangement by the perpetrators of these gun killings followed up by the assertion that even if there were heretofore unknown indications none would have been discovered by a common background check. So let's give you all of that but, to be fair, we'll assume that you would be keen on finding those unknown indications so we might prevent at least one mass shooting in the future. Great. You still have an empty bag.

 
So what about this potential indication: an 18 year old kid wants to buy two AR-15 style weapons, 1800 rounds of ammunition and a dozen or so high capacity magazines.  Is that an indication of potential mental instability? Is that something that should be halted until a little more investigation happens? Is that something a gun shop owner should deny by law or be held responsible for allowing? Is that a reason to have gun control laws?
 
That's the problem. Either you believe mental instability is the issue and can be seen or you just want to use it as a trope so you can ignore the horror of these mass shooting events.
 
Which one are you?
 

Nothing to add, just this whole post bears repeating until it sinks in.

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12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Except for me on gopher patrol, No. I only recall once when some dumb ass showed up with a holstered gun and a Crocodile Dundee knife on his hip and he was told that he's on private property and it needs to be put away. Fortunately, one of our staff is a cop so he drew the duty.

A Rambo type armed individual!!

So in a situation where a armed gunman could have threatened peace loving skydivers out having fun. You refused to confront him immediately and end the potentially threatening situation. Instead you called the cops and took that chance that it didn't become a active shooter situation.. Before the cops could intervene to defuse the situation?

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7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you are someone who needs to believe it's not the guns but it's something else like healthcare, that is to say, uncared for mental derangement, you have a few hurdles to leap. The first hurdle is the constant exclamation that there was no prior indication of derangement by the perpetrators of these gun killings followed up by the assertion that even if there were heretofore unknown indications none would have been discovered by a common background check. So let's give you all of that but, to be fair, we'll assume that you would be keen on finding those unknown indications so we might prevent at least one mass shooting in the future. Great. You still have an empty bag.

 
So what about this potential indication: an 18 year old kid wants to buy two AR-15 style weapons, 1800 rounds of ammunition and a dozen or so high capacity magazines.  Is that an indication of potential mental instability? Is that something that should be halted until a little more investigation happens? Is that something a gun shop owner should deny by law or be held responsible for allowing? Is that a reason to have gun control laws?
 
That's the problem. Either you believe mental instability is the issue and can be seen or you just want to use it as a trope so you can ignore the horror of these mass shooting events.
 
Which one are you?
 

My belief is that ready and easy access to guns is a major problem, as is the cultural mindset that, influenced by John Wayne et al, every problem can be solved by a "good guy with a gun". There's also an awful lot of talk about rights, but not a lot of lip service paid to responsibilities concerned with owning firearms.

The US won't let people drink until they're 21 but will quite happily let them buy a gun with no oversight at 18. How about enforcing the same standards across the board?

I'm not saying that mental health is the be all and end all of the problem by any means but it doesn't help in a society where mental ill-health is stigmatised, and it costs a small fortune to get treatment. Mental health breakdowns very rarely happen instantly, there's usually a build up over a few days or weeks that culminates in the crisis. Early intervention may prevent an incident saving lives but any crisis isn't helped if a person can lay their hands on a gun and ammunition with ease.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

A Rambo type armed individual!!

So in a situation where a armed gunman could have threatened peace loving skydivers out having fun. You refused to confront him immediately and end the potentially threatening situation. Instead you called the cops and took that chance that it didn't become a active shooter situation.. Before the cops could intervene to defuse the situation?

Nope. The cop who saved me is a TI here. In fact, he's a real life hero. He's the cop, it's a famous thing, who in full riot gear at a protest walked up to a little black kid who was holding a sign offering free hugs and asked if he could have one. He then talked to the kid at his level about what was bothering him about the police and gave him agreement and support. Talk about being incredible and knowing how to do your job.

Edited by JoeWeber
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15 hours ago, yoink said:

I believe a US marine is required to attend a 2 week refresher course EVERY YEAR for firearms certification, with half of that being live fire exercises. And that's for someone who is formally trained. (correction welcome)

The civilian currency requirements should not be less than the military. (excluding military specific training scenarios)

Edit - that goes for LEOs too, IMO.

LEOs SHOULD do firearms refresher training every few months. Sadly not all LEOs do. I remember my dad (Canadian Olympic Team shooter and army reserve officer) lamenting some of the scarier mistakes (negligent discharges, holes in the ceiling, etc.) when local LEOs rented the local indoor pistol range for annual refresher training.

OTOH, my ex-brother-in-law never fired his pistol during a 20 year law-enforcement career. He enjoyed policing, just not the guns part of policing.

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Sadly, mental health care is priority last in too many aspects of society.

My current employer (Coast Mountain Bus Company) is one of the few that take mental health seriously. In the immediate aftermath of a traffic accident, drivers are offered mental health defusing. Basically, they have the option of talking over their traffic accident with a trained, mental health semi-pro. The key is immediate therapy to get them down from the adrenaline rush in the immediate aftermath of an accident.

Then the bus company maintains strict confidentiality so that the driver is allowed to slowly forget the accident. Over time (e.g. 90 days), the trauma is allowed to slowly subside. The bus company does things this way, because they want drivers to calm down and refocus on the road as quickly as possible after an accident. 

OTOH the worst way to handle traumatic accidents is to repeatedly remind someone of the worst day of their life. Reminders only grind the miserable day into long term memory. Grinding too many times converts a once-off into a Prolonged Traumatic Stress Disorder. Other big organizations (e.g. Canadian Armed Forces and Transport Canada) take exactly the opposite approach, quietly labelling people as crazy and incapable of responsibility, but flatly refusing to tell the individual. TC goes a step further by taking your money and medical application, but TC bureaucrats quietly decided to not issue the medical but never explain why. The lack of explanation can be frustrating.

In the worst bureaucratic method, some one is labelled as crazy, but confidentiality prevents the organization from telling anyone that he/she is going crazy, ergo they never get mental health treatment.

What a messed up world we live in.

Ye, I admit that some of the above sounds like the ravings of a madman. Six or more doctors agree with my diagnosis of PTSD, but Workmens' Compensation refuses to pay for long-term psychiatric counselling.

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11 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you are someone who needs to believe it's not the guns but it's something else like healthcare, that is to say, uncared for mental derangement, you have a few hurdles to leap.

Those are not hurdles; they are simply how they defend their beloved guns from the existential threat posed by dead schoolkids.

So far we have heard from the right that this shooting was caused by:

- Mental health problems in society
- Violent video games and movies
- A criminally negligent teacher
- A school with too many doors
- Lazy and cowardly cops (unlike the right winger who blames them, who would have gunned down the shooter in a matter of seconds with HIS AR-15.)
- A fence that is too low
- A lack of guns in the purses and waistbands of teachers

They are not looking for logical backing.  They are simply tossing excuses at the wall.  And whichever one sticks (or does not slide down the wall as quickly as the others) they will concentrate on that one.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

Those are not hurdles; they are simply how they defend their beloved guns from the existential threat posed by dead schoolkids.

So far we have heard from the right that this shooting was caused by:

- Mental health problems in society
- Violent video games and movies
- A criminally negligent teacher
- A school with too many doors
- Lazy and cowardly cops (unlike the right winger who blames them, who would have gunned down the shooter in a matter of seconds with HIS AR-15.)
- A fence that is too low
- A lack of guns in the purses and waistbands of teachers

They are not looking for logical backing.  They are simply tossing excuses at the wall.  And whichever one sticks (or does not slide down the wall as quickly as the others) they will concentrate on that one.

Hi Bill,

Your list is a perfect example of the old, 'Hey, look over here.'

The GOP knows that their support of guns unlimited is what gets them votes.  And, that they do not want to change, ever.

IMO the only solution is to vote out the GOP in every office everywhere.

Although, I do like Joe Weber's idea on taxing the hell out of the ammo.

Jerry Baumchen

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On 5/31/2022 at 10:21 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

I guess that Oklahoma is not OK:  1 dead, 7 injured in Oklahoma festival shooting: officials - oregonlive.com

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  Let's see - Do not attend elementary school - Do not attend festivals - Good grief, what is next?

Hi folks,

I guess that Oklahoma is not OK: x 2:  Fatalities reported, multiple people injured in shooting at Tulsa, Oklahoma, medical office: Police (yahoo.com)

Jerry Baumchen

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Plus 15 mass shootings over the US long weekend. Its just incessant.. But to be number one you have to try harder each and every year.

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(edited)
20 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Another AR-15. Bought on the same day. More thoughts and prayers. We just can not live this way and consider ourselves civilized.

Edited by JoeWeber

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2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Another AR-15. Bought on the same day. More thoughts and prayers. We just can not live this way and consider ourselves civilized.

Hi Joe,

The other day I saw a short tv news clip of Moscow Mitch telling us that we need stronger mental health laws.

Of the shooters just this year, who used AR-15's, which one of them would fail a mental health exam?

I seriously doubt that even one would.

All this jaw flapping about background checks & more money for mental health is, IMO, not going to stop the carnage.  It just kicking the can down the road.  Something almost every politician is very good at.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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At the very least can we please get a decent waiting period if you want a gun? Any gun. Not discriminatory.

 

There is simply no situation anyone can reasonably find themselves in where they NEED an AR-15 that same day.  

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

The other day I saw a short tv news clip of Moscow Mitch telling us that we need stronger mental health laws.

Of the shooters just this year, who used AR-15's, which one of them would fail a mental health exam?

I seriously doubt that even one would.

All this jaw flapping about background checks & more money for mental health is, IMO, not going to stop the carnage.  It just kicking the can down the road.  Something almost every politician is very good at.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Agreed.

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23 minutes ago, yoink said:

At the very least can we please get a decent waiting period if you want a gun? Any gun. Not discriminatory.

 

There is simply no situation anyone can reasonably find themselves in where they NEED an AR-15 that same day.  

Moreover, I stand by my point that believing you need to buy one or two AR-15's and a crate of ammo, and a dozen high capacity mags and walk out the door with your new arsenal, should be seen, as a default condition, as evidence of mental instability. If you can prove otherwise then come back in two weeks after your successful psychological exam and pick up your guns. Why? Well, because just like your pit bull that never bit anyone before some things simply can not be trusted based on biased assertion.

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6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Moreover, I stand by my point that believing you need to buy one or two AR-15's and a crate of ammo, and a dozen high capacity mags and walk out the door with your new arsenal, should be seen, as a default condition, as evidence of mental instability. If you can prove otherwise then come back in two weeks after your successful psychological exam and pick up your guns. Why? Well, because just like your pit bull that never bit anyone before some things simply can not be trusted based on biased assertion.

Hi Joe,

When I was about 10 yrs old, I was attacked by a rather large, to me, German Shepherd dog. He got me in my right thigh.

Somethings in life you never forget.

I don't like any dogs, no matter the size.  I do not hate them, I just want nothing to do with them.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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