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kawisixer01

USPA BOD meeting changes

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TomNoonan

Hi Judy,

My apologies, I attempted to respond to everyone's questions in a single "catch all" reply above, apparently I left out responses to your question.

USPA provides the S&TA Handbook via PDF from www.uspa,org that has basic guidelines.



What exactly are the "basic" guidelines. Seem to be a lot grey area.

Why can't the USPA publish a list of offenses and there appropriate punishments? People make mistakes skydiving, but I'm talking about the ones that know better and push that limit where eventually someone gets hurt. (which we want to avoid)

EXAMPLE (using the new tandem rules):

Offense: Did a turn over 90 degrees on purpose (not to avoid obstacle)
1st Offense: Warning
2nd Offense: 30 day rating suspension
3rd offense: rating pulled

If the members actually knew there were consequences to breaking the BSR's it might make them think twice about it. Also, S&TA's are usually buddies with the jumpers at their dz's and I think that makes it harder for them to discipline them. If they can just say here is a list the USPA Board of Directors have put together as violations and there punishments, It will take some of the pressure off them doing the right thing.

I realize getting the USPA to be more transparent is a losing battle, but sometimes I feel I just can't sit by and not say anything.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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Actually when a member's ratings or membership are suspended either temporarily or permanently it becomes part of the minutes of the BOD meetings, all of which are available at uspa.org. The reasons for the actions are not listed, but given the open nature of communication in the sport it isn't hard to figure that out.

Is that what you are asking for or do you want the gruesome details directly from the head shed?



But all of that is after the fact...after someone died or got hurt. And it is only twice a year.

I want to see it published monthly. They do put out a monthly publication and email

Who did it, what they did, and what was their punishment.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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jlmiracle

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Actually when a member's ratings or membership are suspended either temporarily or permanently it becomes part of the minutes of the BOD meetings, all of which are available at uspa.org. The reasons for the actions are not listed, but given the open nature of communication in the sport it isn't hard to figure that out.

Is that what you are asking for or do you want the gruesome details directly from the head shed?



But all of that is after the fact...after someone died or got hurt. And it is only twice a year.

I want to see it published monthly. They do put out a monthly publication and email

Who did it, what they did, and what was their punishment.

Judy



The reporting of disciplinary actions can of course only come after the fact, so they would always come after a death or injury if applicable regardless of the frequency of the reports. Also, disciplinary actions seldom involve incidents in which someone is hurt or killed.

If what you are asking for are regular reports on open investigations like you might read in a newspaper or see on TV, that's not going to happen. USPA bylaws require disciplinary investigations to remain confidential until final disposition. Let's face it, none of us would want our case being reported on publicly, especially if we were actually innocent of the accusations.

As for reporting more details about incidents that do result in disciplinary action after disposition, I can't answer that one. The only thing I've ever seen in the minutes are the actions taken, but without the details of the cases.

I'm not sure if the bylaws allow details of the reason for disciplinary action to be made public. I'm also not sure if airing the sport's dirty laundry is a good idea or a bad one. I'm sure there are several ways to see that.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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jlmiracle

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Actually when a member's ratings or membership are suspended either temporarily or permanently it becomes part of the minutes of the BOD meetings, all of which are available at uspa.org. The reasons for the actions are not listed, but given the open nature of communication in the sport it isn't hard to figure that out.

Is that what you are asking for or do you want the gruesome details directly from the head shed?



But all of that is after the fact...after someone died or got hurt. And it is only twice a year.

I want to see it published monthly. They do put out a monthly publication and email

Who did it, what they did, and what was their punishment.

Judy

And other than giving people something to gossip about, the value of this would be??????
I've been involved with both sides of this.
A skydiver got an Examiner rating from a regional director that was a friend in spite of NOT being recommended by three Examiners he had assisted. Even after a complaint was made, nothing happened until a new RD took over. Found out he had even forged a signature on a recommendation. He lost the rating but no disciplinary action taken toward either the RD or the " examiner".

I also ended up getting dragged into a pissing contest between two S&TA's. One was friends with an RD. Got a call from the RD threatening to pull ALL my ratings if I didn't go along with his/her course of action. That course of action was based solely on one version of events , didn't want to hear both sides (neither of the S&TA's were without fault, it was really a wash in my mind), just discipline the non-friend. The S&TA was not allowed to give his side (same thing, "accept what I'm doing and shut up or I can pull all your ratings").
My point is, for either of these situations to be made public, with names, would serve no real purpose.
What does serve a purpose is the new disciplinary structure adopted by USPA. All are innocent until proven guilty. An RD can't be a regional dictator. There is a formal structure and process to investigate charges.

We have always been able to read board minutes. You've been in the sport 20 years, yet you needed someone to tell you about the governance manual. Do you need a link to the board minutes?
Again, what purpose would be served by adopting your proposal?
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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No, I'm quite aware of the "governance manual" and I am also quite aware about the minutes from the meetings, which tell me nothing.

I'm just looking for some consistency when they CHOOSE to discipline someone. Currently there is no consistency, because everything is super secret, and they don't want to hurt any ones feelings. Why should I give a crap about their rules, regulations, and recommendations, if I don't know if or what the consequences are.

Yep, been doing this almost 20 years...and I have realized over those 20 years the USPA is nothing more than a 3rd party liability insurance middle man.

The purpose of my proposal is to stop crap like you posted from happening. If there is a written list of offenses and their punishments, then there could be some consistency in the discipline. Maybe the ones that behave badly would think twice about it, if they were going to be "outed" to the rest of the community...kinda like a police report.

I know the BOD will never go for this and there is no point in trying to get any transparency with the USPA, but I can still speak my mind about.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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Maybe the ones that behave badly would think twice about it, if they were going to be "outed" to the rest of the community...kinda like a police report.



While I agree with you entirely in principle, police reports are crime-general society-related. USPA reports do not come from a government body; there are liabilities that could affect USPA insurance, and potentially affect how the USPA does business.

Transparency is a good thing, and it frustrates me to see (for example) "instructors" who have no concern for who nor how they teach, kill or maim someone with no repercussion, particularly after they've been warned. A first offense is one thing. Seconds/thirds? Something else.
However...were USPA to "out" these people, they might find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit for damaging someone's reputation so they can no longer work.

It's quite rare that a governing body speaks out/reveals names in virtually any activity, unless there is an accompanying legal action.
For example, when was the last time AOPA released names of pilots known to have been flying while intoxicated, unless there was an arrest involved?

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For example, when was the last time AOPA released names of pilots known to have been flying while intoxicated, unless there was an arrest involved?



I have no idea since I have never had the need to look at the AOPA website.

Like I said, I know the USPA will never be transparent. I know this is a battle I will not win. They will always play favorites. I will continue to pay my insurance premium because I want to skydive, but I have not respect for the organization.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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Maybe I missed the answer to a question I asked earlier?


yoink

Tom - how are you seeing these BSRs actually being enforced?

If nothing alters culturally within the USPA then you can introduce as many of them as you want - nothing will change. If the USPA introduces regulations, then they have to be enforced somehow.

The only way I can see this happening is at a DZO level - they have to be held accountable by the USPA for the actions of their employees with some form of meaningful sanctions available. That responsibility will be passed on to the individual TIs from the owners.



(Of course no DZO would accept this responsibility, and since the USPA is largely made up of DZOs we're back to the original question...)

How do you enforce this BSR at an individual level?

Who is going to be checking what the tandem instructors are doing, and how? - Is there a position in the USPA who is going to review every youtube video uploaded by passengers as they find them? Are DZs going to be required to submit all their tandem videos at the end of the year for some sort of audit?

What's the process?


How do you make it so that it's applied equally to all instructors - the ones who take a student without video, for example? Or the ones who don't upload video?



I agree with the intention of the BSRs, but think it's an entirely pointless exercise unless along with the regulation updates, you codify how the process has to work, otherwise it's just a wishlist.

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yoink

Maybe I missed the answer to a question I asked earlier?


***Tom - how are you seeing these BSRs actually being enforced?

If nothing alters culturally within the USPA then you can introduce as many of them as you want - nothing will change. If the USPA introduces regulations, then they have to be enforced somehow.

The only way I can see this happening is at a DZO level - they have to be held accountable by the USPA for the actions of their employees with some form of meaningful sanctions available. That responsibility will be passed on to the individual TIs from the owners.



(Of course no DZO would accept this responsibility, and since the USPA is largely made up of DZOs we're back to the original question...)

How do you enforce this BSR at an individual level?

Who is going to be checking what the tandem instructors are doing, and how? - Is there a position in the USPA who is going to review every youtube video uploaded by passengers as they find them? Are DZs going to be required to submit all their tandem videos at the end of the year for some sort of audit?

What's the process?


How do you make it so that it's applied equally to all instructors - the ones who take a student without video, for example? Or the ones who don't upload video?



I agree with the intention of the BSRs, but think it's an entirely pointless exercise unless along with the regulation updates, you codify how the process has to work, otherwise it's just a wishlist.

In the end it's about the money. Whenever someone tells you that it's not about the money, then you can be assured that it's about the money.

What we do carries a level of liability, and we're subject to being named in a law suit. If the plaintiff, their lawyers, and hired experts can exhibit video of the defendant/DZ regularly ignoring the industry standard (USPA SIM/BSR), they'll extrapolate to the jury that you're operation is routinely ignoring safety rules, and though handle checks or 180 degree turns may not have been a contributing factor in whatever happened, it can be argued to demonstrate a level of negligence. This can be costly in real dollars.

If you don't want to hang your ass out anymore than necessary in order to do business, one might consider enforcing these rules and recommendations on a DZ level.

I'm not a huge fan of the handle check BSR, but we'll be doing them on my DZ. The other BSR changes aren't an issue, they were normal procedures with us previously.

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Not being a tandem instructor I could well be mistaken - aren't handle checks part of the manufacturer training / requirements?

The USPA is rightly afraid of lawsuits which prevents them from mandating certain procedures. Likewise, the DZOs.
The only way enforceable rules can possibly work is if the liability is passed down the food chain to the individual level... Now HOW that could happen I've no idea. Didn't Relative Workshop change their name for that sort of reason? 'Don't sue us, sue the guys using our equipment'?

Maybe it should be the UUSPA. :ph34r:


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As I understand, anytime there's a suit going forward, they'll add all the names and individuals that they can find to include the instructors. It's free to add names.

I"m using Eclipse rigs, so there is no manufacturer. I am an Eclipse and USPA Tandem IE and have always required handle checks in training. Eclipse did require handle checks as well.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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jlmiracle



Yep, been doing this almost 20 years...and I have realized over those 20 years the USPA is nothing more than a 3rd party liability insurance middle man.

In my mind, no, USPA is what stands between us as skydivers and FAA regulation of our sport.
You want to eliminate arbitrary enforcement?
Let's get the Fed's involved and see how that goes.
BPA anyone????
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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ufk22

***

Yep, been doing this almost 20 years...and I have realized over those 20 years the USPA is nothing more than a 3rd party liability insurance middle man.

In my mind, no, USPA is what stands between us as skydivers and FAA regulation of our sport.
You want to eliminate arbitrary enforcement?
Let's get the Fed's involved and see how that goes.
BPA anyone????


My problem with the USPA, as you so nicely put it, is the ARBITRARY enforcement.

Due to their lack of consistency, I think they are more likely to get sued. They have no track record to show how they consistently enforced anything. One guy gets away with behaving badly while another can do the same and get their rating pulled?


Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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In an elected board organization, consistency will never exist.

These same conversations occur in a non-sporting environment where I work, about "selective enforcement" and "good ole' boys get away with this/that."
Skydivers aren't all that special. Since the BOD doesn't publicly announce what/who/where... we as an organization avoid legal repercussions. We've already once seen the near-death of USPA due to a lawsuit; I'm grateful they recovered.

They don't need a consistent track record of who they have disciplined or not; because it's diligence or word of mouth, it would be difficult for anyone to prove an inconsistent (or consistent) track record. Moreover, if it's a tandem conversation, it falls on the manufacturer moreso than the USPA.

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USPA is nothing more than a club. If you don't like the rules don't join. Except then you will not be able to participate in FAI activities, or get FAI credentials. FAI will only recognize one Aero Club member per country.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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DSE

We've already once seen the near-death of USPA due to a lawsuit; I'm grateful they recovered.



Douglas, I was following you pretty well until this point.

What lawsuit do you think almost destroyed USPA?
Who told you that?

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peek

***We've already once seen the near-death of USPA due to a lawsuit; I'm grateful they recovered.



Douglas, I was following you pretty well until this point.

What lawsuit do you think almost destroyed USPA?
Who told you that?

I was told by multiple people that the Skyride lawsuit could have bankrupted USPA had it continued. I suspect this is but one of the reasons USPA is gunshy and overly conservative compared to other organizations.
That said; Having just spent the last year working with two other national bodies, I have somewhat shifted my opinion of what USPA actually does, and how they do it.

There are some aspects of USPA administration that are very broken, there are aspects that work really, really well.
But no matter what, life with them is significantly better than life with out them.

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DSE

I was told by multiple people that the Skyride lawsuit could have bankrupted USPA had it continued. I suspect this is but one of the reasons USPA is gunshy and overly conservative compared to other organizations.



Well, I can't say anything for sure, because many of us were not privy to the details of the lawsuit, even if we should have been.

I don't believe that USPA was in any kind of distress, financial or otherwise. If they had USPA "over the barrel" to that degree, USPA could never have gotten the concessions from them that we did related to requiring that they discontinue some of their questionable practices.

Numerous people like to portray USPA as being fragile. I think that is insulting to its members, most of who proudly support their organization and who go out of their way to work within its guidelines so that it remains strong.

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gowlerk

USPA is nothing more than a club. If you don't like the rules don't join. Except then you will not be able to participate in FAI activities, or get FAI credentials. FAI will only recognize one Aero Club member per country Jump pretty much anywhere in the US.



FIFY :)
I appreciate what USPA does/has done in keeping the FAA off our backs.
And I like the 3rd party liability insurance. Although my own personal insurance would cover the stuff it covers if needed (I asked, in case I go over the USPA limits).

But as far as regulatory stuff or disciplinary actions related to that, they are a joke.
Except jokes are supposed to be funny.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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peek

***I was told by multiple people that the Skyride lawsuit could have bankrupted USPA had it continued. I suspect this is but one of the reasons USPA is gunshy and overly conservative compared to other organizations.



Well, I can't say anything for sure, because many of us were not privy to the details of the lawsuit, even if we should have been.

I don't believe that USPA was in any kind of distress, financial or otherwise. If they had USPA "over the barrel" to that degree, USPA could never have gotten the concessions from them that we did related to requiring that they discontinue some of their questionable practices.

Numerous people like to portray USPA as being fragile. I think that is insulting to its members, most of who proudly support their organization and who go out of their way to work within its guidelines so that it remains strong.

I don't see USPA as being fragile at all. I do see them as any other representative entity that likely cannot survive a large $$ lawsuit. Insurance or not, the resources are likely not there. That fact should not be insulting, but rather a positive recognition of an organization that offers a great benefit and value to its membership at a very low cost. Were it that the organization had deeper pockets and provided similar services, it would be an insult to the membership that we were paying so much for what we get at a value now. I believe the administration of USPA does a reasonable job of keeping cost for value quite low, don't you?

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DSE

I don't see USPA as being fragile at all. I do see them as any other representative entity that likely cannot survive a large $$ lawsuit.



Those two statements seem to contradict each other, but I'm not going to argue. (The internet is just not very good for this kind of discussion.) To end my part of this discussion, I am just going to say that I believe USPA can survive any lawsuit. (I have no more or no less proof of that than anyone else.)

Quote

I believe the administration of USPA does a reasonable job of keeping cost for value quite low, don't you?



In general, yes. Our Government Relations resources alone are worth our dues.

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