AFF Arching Issues.

[garyhugo 0]

During AFF5 I lost the instructor, and I'm talking maybe 100' below me. Maybe more. He was waaay far away! Too far to see his tiny hands giving me a pull signal, that's for sure.

During debriefing it was explained to me that I had relaxed/de-arched/cupped/floated after barrel rolls and there was nothing the instructor could do to stay with me.

I spent an hour in a tunnel before AFF, so I know a little about arching more to fall faster, or less to fall slower.

The problem is I couldn't see the instructor throughout the jump. I had no idea he was falling faster than me.

How am I supposed to be able to determine how much to arch when I have nothing to compare myself to in the air?

Should I be aiming for maximum possible arch at all times?

[sammielu 3]

Yes. You should arch through your entire skydive. Part of what you are learning is to fly your body stable and predictable.

At this point in your training I'd say you just need to jump more :)

[ufk22 32]

Describe how or what you did to initiate your barrel rolls.
You obviously did get back onto your belly???
What was your deployment altitude?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[tred 0]

what was your pre jump instructions? I don't remember which level it changed but at some point the instruction went from if you cant find your instructor after so many seconds pull.. to... if you cant find your instructor continue the skydive as planned and pull at correct altitude

[garyhugo 0]

ufk22

Describe how or what you did to initiate your barrel rolls.
You obviously did get back onto your belly???
What was your deployment altitude?

Cessna 182. Jump at 10k. Pull at 5k. Initiated barrel rolls (deliberately) by pulling an arm in. First left, then right. Instructor said if I get both done by 8k I can do a 360º. I got done at 7½k, figured that was close enough, so I went for it. Not sure if instructor thought I was out of control (or if I was even, but didn't realize it) but the next thing I knew he'd crashed into me, sending me flying every which way. I recovered onto my belly at 6k, but in a spin. I stopped the spin at 5,200. That was when I spotted the instructor absolutely miles below me. I tried to pull, but couldn't find the toggle, flipped over onto my back, recovered and tried again, finding it higher up my back that the last rig I'd used. I thought the "crash" was some kind of deliberate de-stability training, but apparently it was to stop something (maybe my turn, I'm not sure). I didn't ask too many questions because I was embarrassed that I'd already told other people at the DZ that the instructor had deliberately sent me flying (which, like I said, I thought was part of the training) but apparently wasn't. Oops. =(

[garyhugo 0]

The question though is how much arch is "normal?"

I mean, in the tunnel I could arch to fly upwards, or I could arch to sink. It was easy to judge though because I was either flying with the instructor, or following his instructions. In the air though, with no-one around, I can't seem to judge it (I guess).

[wmw999 2,117]

Your job as a student is to make mistakes and learn from them. Your instructor's job is to try to mitigate the possible life-threatening consequences of mistakes, to provide a solid frame of reference for you to practice against, and to provide information so that you can honestly remember more of your jump, and learn from it. If you don't remember what happened, you can't fix it after all.

Honestly, I think the instructor needs to have more range when the student has a wide range. It's his or her job to stay with you.

By level 5, you should be entirely trustworthy to pull at a good altitude under the vast majority of circumstances. You should be able to return to stability consciously from nearly any position. That's the purpose of the barrel roll, back roll, etc. in these jumps.

As far as whats a normal arch, it varies from person to person. Each person's body is different.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ufk22 32]

garyhugo

***Describe how or what you did to initiate your barrel rolls.
You obviously did get back onto your belly???
What was your deployment altitude?

Cessna 182. Jump at 10k. Pull at 5k. Initiated barrel rolls (deliberately) by pulling an arm in. First left, then right. Instructor said if I get both done by 8k I can do a 360º. I got done at 7½k, figured that was close enough, so I went for it. Not sure if instructor thought I was out of control (or if I was even, but didn't realize it) but the next thing I knew he'd crashed into me, sending me flying every which way. I recovered onto my belly at 6k, but in a spin. I stopped the spin at 5,200. That was when I spotted the instructor absolutely miles below me. I tried to pull, but couldn't find the toggle, flipped over onto my back, recovered and tried again, finding it higher up my back that the last rig I'd used. I thought the "crash" was some kind of deliberate de-stability training, but apparently it was to stop something (maybe my turn, I'm not sure). I didn't ask too many questions because I was embarrassed that I'd already told other people at the DZ that the instructor had deliberately sent me flying (which, like I said, I thought was part of the training) but apparently wasn't. Oops. =(Assuming your version of what happened is pretty close to reality....
The one arm barrel roll is a pet peeve of mine. Most students that are taught this technique usually end up doing more of a head-down spiral, which burns a fair bit of altitude. A barrel roll should be done using both arm and leg, with symmetry. Right arm and leg in to initiate, right arm and leg out and left arm and leg in at half-way and left arm and leg out near finish. While the arm-only roll-our-of-bed is a good tool for getting back on your belly when inverted, it doesn't always work well to initiate a controlled barrel roll.
Your instructor ended up below you because you probably burned a bunch of altitude doing your barrel rolls, he was diving towards you to catch up, maybe didn't remember that you had talked about doing a 360 right after, and then collided with you when you slowed down after the barrel rolls. Your "amount of arch" sounds more like a CYA thing from your instructor for colliding and then not recovering.
You didn't say what your altitude was when you pulled, but considering the collision and all, congratulations on saving your life.
If it was above 4500' I hope he gave you a pass on the dive.
All the above assumes your version of what happened is pretty close, and I have seen similar stuff enough to kind of figure out how it came to be.
On the other hand, not every student's recall is grounded in reality.
But neither is every instructor's.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.