billvon 2,356 #26 May 9, 2022 4 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said: As with any commodity, the price to harvest it will determine the retail pricing. Oh, definitely. But consider that there is a wide spectrum of costs for oil. There are tar sands and tight oil which are expensive. There are wells that have been producing for 50 years that are (at this point) just a jackpump and a wellhead and those are very cheap. And a whole range in between. When demand is high you need all of those sources - and you can get all those sources because demand drives prices through the roof, and therefore even tight oil is profitable. When demand is low you shed the high price sources and retain the lower price sources. So the average price of supply declines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 May 10, 2022 We will never drill for the last barrel of oil because it will be too deep, too far offshore and too crude. By then synthetic gasoline will be less expensive. Less expensive is relative because only wealthy antique automobile owners (think Clive Cussler and Jay Leno) will be able to afford to drive their cars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,329 #28 May 11, 2022 3 hours ago, riggerrob said: We will never drill for the last barrel of oil because it will be too deep, too far offshore and too crude. By then synthetic gasoline will be less expensive. Less expensive is relative because only wealthy antique automobile owners (think Clive Cussler and Jay Leno) will be able to afford to drive their cars. Meh. The formula for synthetics has been around for a long time. The Nazis used it in WW2 because once they lost access to crude oil, 'really expensive fuel' was better than 'no fuel at all'. Most types use natural gas as a base stock, instead of crude. Synthetic oils have been around for a long time. Currently, they run 3x to 4x of crude based oils (commonly referred to as 'dino oil' for 'dinosaur based'). 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. Just not a lot or regularly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,041 #29 May 11, 2022 18 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Meh. The formula for synthetics has been around for a long time. The Nazis used it in WW2 because once they lost access to crude oil, 'really expensive fuel' was better than 'no fuel at all'. Most types use natural gas as a base stock, instead of crude. Synthetic oils have been around for a long time. Currently, they run 3x to 4x of crude based oils (commonly referred to as 'dino oil' for 'dinosaur based'). 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. Just not a lot or regularly. Hi Joe, Re: 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. This is something I've thought about a fair amount recently. Both of my cars have 3.5L V-6 engines; one requires Super. I wonder just what is the tipping point on jump prices until people * simply say that it is too costly? Thoughts, anyone? Jerry Baumchen * People not making their livelihood via jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,090 #30 May 11, 2022 I’ll admit every car I’ve ever bought independently, starting in 1975 (well, except for the first, when there were only two criteria: availability, and cost of under $200), has had gas mileage as a major decision factor. I’ve never regretted that priority. Ya have to put gas into the car on a very regular basis; why not minimize the impact. Ive used the same approach to utilities and rent as well. Not take it to the ridiculous (I live in a nice house), I just don’t see the point in maximizing usage instead of minimizing. Wendy P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #31 May 11, 2022 1 minute ago, JerryBaumchen said: Hi Joe, Re: 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. This is something I've thought about a fair amount recently. Both of my cars have 3.5L V-6 engines; one requires Super. I wonder just what is the tipping point on jump prices until people * simply say that it is too costly? Thoughts, anyone? Jerry Baumchen * People not making their livelihood via jumping. I don’t think there will be a tipping point. People will make incremental choices based on their own situation. As some folks choose to drive less, demand for gas will drop and prices will adjust accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,265 #32 May 11, 2022 49 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Meh. The formula for synthetics has been around for a long time. The Nazis used it in WW2 because once they lost access to crude oil, 'really expensive fuel' was better than 'no fuel at all'. Most types use natural gas as a base stock, instead of crude. Synthetic oils have been around for a long time. Currently, they run 3x to 4x of crude based oils (commonly referred to as 'dino oil' for 'dinosaur based'). 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. Just not a lot or regularly. Sure, but don't you deliver my food, wine and toys by burning hydrocarbons? If I can't afford those you might be out of work and driving a buggy for your personal transport. I think fuel will stay in an affordability range as we transition to electric vehicles. We will just need to make sure it is sufficiently and progressively subsidized along the way. Step one to swallowing that bitter drink, I think, is pulling the curtain back on all of the ways we currently subsidize oil and oil products production so we know what we're paying for. As an example, how many Americans do you think understand the depletion allowance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #33 May 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: Sure, but don't you deliver my food, wine and toys by burning hydrocarbons? If I can't afford those you might be out of work and driving a buggy for your personal transport. I think fuel will stay in an affordability range as we transition to electric vehicles. We will just need to make sure it is sufficiently and progressively subsidized along the way. Step one to swallowing that bitter drink, I think, is pulling the curtain back on all of the ways we currently subsidize oil and oil products production so we know what we're paying for. As an example, how many Americans do you think understand the depletion allowance? What do you think will happen if we suspend standard accounting practices for oil and gas companies? They will just pass the costs on to consumers which is tantamount to a highly regressive tax on the poor and working class. You wanted a carbon tax? Biden’s policies have given us a de facto carbon tax and the public is trying it on and they don’t like how it fits. They will let the Ds know just how much they don’t like it, come November. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,265 #34 May 11, 2022 18 minutes ago, brenthutch said: What do you think will happen if we suspend standard accounting practices for oil and gas companies? They will just pass the costs on to consumers which is tantamount to a highly regressive tax on the poor and working class. You wanted a carbon tax? Biden’s policies have given us a de facto carbon tax and the public is trying it on and they don’t like how it fits. They will let the Ds know just how much they don’t like it, come November. Easy Luv, I clearly stated that we needed to shine some light on the cockroaches not kill them. Further, and I'd rather choke on a chicken bone that speak the words, I wrote that we needed to continue the subsidies "sufficiently and progressively" until happily ever after arrives. Now I suppose someone might read that as a call for a suspension of standard accounting practices, or even a suspension of suspenders if need be, and an excuse to resurrect old carbon tax arguments, and de facto re-notice Biden (why not also Obama is a mystery), and remember that our tantamount major concern is the poor. But that wasn't my drift. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #35 May 11, 2022 29 minutes ago, brenthutch said: What do you think will happen if we suspend standard subsidies, government handouts, bankruptcy laws,environmental regulations,well cleanup costs for oil and gas companies? They will just pass the costs on to consumers which is tantamount to a highly regressive tax on the poor and working class. You wanted a carbon tax? Biden’s policies have given us a de facto carbon tax and the public is trying it on and they don’t like how it fits. They will let the Ds know just how much they don’t like it, come November. FIFY,You must have missed some FOX programming recently. Too much time on Truth social? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,356 #36 May 11, 2022 2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: 17 mpg at $12-$16/gal doesn't sound very appealing, but I could afford to drive some. Just not a lot or regularly. Consider a car like the RAV4 prime. Pluggable hybrid with a range of 40 miles EV-only. A vehicle like that would allow people to commute to work and back and do their shopping with no gas usage at all, with the "but I have to drive 500 miles with my houseboat up hill both ways in a blizzard" uses covered by gas. People would end up spending far less at $16 a gallon than they do now at $5 a gallon. I've had a Prius Prime for 3 years now and I get gas once a year. I can just wait until it gets cheap again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,265 #37 May 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, billvon said: Consider a car like the RAV4 prime. Pluggable hybrid with a range of 40 miles EV-only. A vehicle like that would allow people to commute to work and back and do their shopping with no gas usage at all, with the "but I have to drive 500 miles with my houseboat up hill both ways in a blizzard" uses covered by gas. People would end up spending far less at $16 a gallon than they do now at $5 a gallon. I've had a Prius Prime for 3 years now and I get gas once a year. I can just wait until it gets cheap again. It's now on offer to have 10kW motors integrated with the standard diesel engines on some vessels. The UK company that makes the best system has discontinued addition retrofits, they want to sell the combo only, but I'm not giving up. Those and another 10kW of Lithium and I'd be styling. The future is here, no waiting required. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #38 June 9, 2022 CO2 levels are now 50 percent higher than in pre-industrial times — a level not seen for 4 million years. "The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reports that in May, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere peaked at a level 50 percent higher than the pre-industrial average, before we humans began widespread burning of fossil fuels. NOAA's measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide at its Mauna Loa observatory in Hawaii averaged 420.99 parts per million during May. There hasn't been that much CO2 in the atmosphere since an episode in the geologic record known as the Pliocene Climate Optimum — which occurred more than 4 million years ago. " "According to new analysis from the Center for American Progress, there are still 139 elected officials in the 117th Congress, including 109 representatives and 30 senators, who refuse to acknowledge the scientific evidence of human-caused climate change. All 139 of these climate-denying elected officials have made recent statements casting doubt on the clear, established scientific consensus that the world is warming—and that human activity is to blame. These same 139 climate-denying members have received more than $61 million in lifetime contributions from the coal, oil, and gas industries." Not to worry. Gun violence will take care of the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #39 June 11, 2022 On 6/9/2022 at 10:31 AM, Phil1111 said: NOAA's measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide at its Mauna Loa observatory in Hawaii averaged 420.99 parts per million during May. There hasn't been that much CO2 in the atmosphere since an episode in the geologic record known as the Pliocene Climate Optimum — which occurred more than 4 million years ago. " Heralding in the new Anthropocene Climate Optimum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites