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loafer1357

Attn: DZ Owners- would you be interested in providing accidental death insurance to your tandem skydiving participants

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Hi DZ Owners,
My name is Joel Dempsey and I took my first tandem skydive last Memorial Day. I was scared out of my mind, which is what led me to try to create and insurance program specifically for tandem skydivers.

Without going into too much detail in a public forum, the policy is an accidental death policy for tandem skydivers. The cost for $25,000 of insurance would only be $4.00 and for $250,000 the cost would be $26.00.

So my question is, is this something that you, the DZ owner, would be interested in providing your tandem clients?

I appreciate your response either way.

Best,
Joel Dempsey

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loafer1357

15%. But 2 % gets taken away before I ever see it, so really just 13%.

DZ's would be encouraged to include administration fee's in with the premium so DZ's would make money on every policy that's sold through their DZ as well.



It varies from state to state, but if the DZs are truly making money off the insurance premium (as opposed to being merely a 100% pass-thru), the particular state's Insurance Commission might require the DZ to apply for licensure in advance.

I'm also curious: have you researched polices that would not have express exclusions (since many do) for activities such as skydiving?

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A good idea. But consider also disability insurance. Even if a DZ makes nothing off of it, it would be a good thing to offer to customers.

Recall the Oregon Supreme court decision that said a waiver was not enforceable for snow skiing. One of the factors that the court considered was the availability (or lack there of) for insurance the user could purchase to cover the risk of injury to help offset the risk they were assuming by agreeing to the waiver.

A DZ might want to have this available for their customers, and to have it cheap enough that at least some people take advantage of it (because is no one does, the insurance company would stop offering it).

I know a disability policy would be more subject to fraud claims (and so more expensive for that reason; plus more people survive with injury than end up dead), but in the case of a catastrophic injury, there will be a suit challenging the waiver, and if the injuried party at least had to option to purchase insurance, that would help the defense.

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Not a DZ owner, but I have a question. Does anybody else think the premium being proposed is horrendously high? Given that the risk of death from a tandem skydive is in the range of one in several hundred thousand, I would never pay the proposed fee for the amount of payout being offered. Such prices would take advantage of the customer's perception that the jump is probably a whole lot more dangerous than it actually is, and somebody stands to make a very unfair amount of money out of this. I'd hope if this insurance was offered at the proposed prices, that it would be widely ignored by passengers.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Loafer, I can make an attempt to quantify my comment above. Please point out my error, if there is one (or more). The USPA uses a number of approximately 1-in-333,000 for deaths from tandem skydiving. For the $25,000 rate plan, you can expect to pay out an average 7.5 cents for every person who buys a policy. Yet the proposal is to charge $4. For the $250,000 plan, you can expect to pay out 75 cents for every policy holder, yet the proposed premium is $26. I know there is overhead, commissions and profit to be considered, but this is outrageous.

Do you know what I've been thinking the skydiving world needs? We often get questions on here about insurance for regular jumpers. The scuba diving industry has some great scuba-specialist plans, which cover very scuba-specific issues, on an annual or single-trip basis. Some examples are from DAN and DiveAssure.

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/
http://www.diveassure.com/new/usa/

For some reason, nobody has made such a plan for skydivers, despite there being pent-up demand for it. I know the risk is probably higher for skydiving, but the rates could be adjusted accordingly.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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Former DZO and devil's advocate here...

"Little Johnny, we are a very competent skydiving operation dedicated to your safety. By the way, would you like to buy some life insurance that covers skydiving deaths?"

I get the logic but not sure it's the best thing to offer people that often show up wondering whether they will be driving home or having a relative pick up their car on their behalf.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

Former DZO and devil's advocate here...

"Little Johnny, we are a very competent skydiving operation dedicated to your safety. By the way, would you like to buy some life insurance that covers skydiving deaths?"

I get the logic but not sure it's the best thing to offer people that often show up wondering whether they will be driving home or having a relative pick up their car on their behalf.



Chuck, it's not even just the "offer" of insurance. The OP has suggested that DZ's could add an extra fee (to the already ridiculous prices) so that they profit from every policy sold. This would encourage DZOs to use salesmanship, and possibly some hard sales techniques, to upsell their tandem packages with these policies. So now you have a conflict between the industry trying to convince people that they're safe, and the capitalist desire to convince them that it's dangerous and you need to buy insurance. How would that play out at the reception desk?

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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chuckakers

Former DZO and devil's advocate here...

"Little Johnny, we are a very competent skydiving operation dedicated to your safety. By the way, would you like to buy some life insurance that covers skydiving deaths?"

I get the logic but not sure it's the best thing to offer people that often show up wondering whether they will be driving home or having a relative pick up their car on their behalf.


Yeah, but did you ever read the waiver and watch that video with the ZZ-Top guy? The topic is brought to their attention numerous times before they even strap on a harness.

It could be added as a section to the waiver ( "I [agree | decline] to purchase the accident insurance policy").

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Years ago In the Bill Booth student training video's he made reference to death, dying, and injury many many times and still students chose to jump after watching them - I don't recall any ever backing out because of that video stressing the potential carnage.

Personally I would rather see students confronted with the "what can happen" and make a fully informed decision than have them peering at their choice to jump through rose colored glasses because of the typical DZ bullshit of how reliable ram air canopy's and AAD's are. - each and every jump has the potential to go catastrophically wrong no matter if its your 1st or 10,000th.

Perhaps a few would rethink their decision once they were informed that the insurance was available but I am pretty sure the numbers would be really low.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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D22369

Years ago In the Bill Booth student training video's he made reference to death, dying, and injury many many times and still students chose to jump after watching them - I don't recall any ever backing out because of that video stressing the potential carnage.

Personally I would rather see students confronted with the "what can happen" and make a fully informed decision than have them peering at their choice to jump through rose colored glasses because of the typical DZ bullshit of how reliable ram air canopy's and AAD's are. - each and every jump has the potential to go catastrophically wrong no matter if its your 1st or 10,000th.

Perhaps a few would rethink their decision once they were informed that the insurance was available but I am pretty sure the numbers would be really low.

Roy



I guess some of you guys didn't get the tongue-in-cheek nature of my post. I was more pointing out the irony than anything else. The same guy who sells the customer a skydive also sells them life insurance. Sounds like something you'd see in a sitcom!
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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loafer1357

Hi DZ Owners,
My name is Joel Dempsey and I took my first tandem skydive last Memorial Day. I was scared out of my mind, which is what led me to try to create and insurance program specifically for tandem skydivers.

Without going into too much detail in a public forum, the policy is an accidental death policy for tandem skydivers. The cost for $25,000 of insurance would only be $4.00 and for $250,000 the cost would be $26.00.

So my question is, is this something that you, the DZ owner, would be interested in providing your tandem clients?

I appreciate your response either way.

Best,
Joel Dempsey



In the result of a death and subsequent payment, wouldn't the underwriter go after the DZO and everyone else involved to get their money back?

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......
Joel Dempsey

In the result of a death and subsequent payment, wouldn't the underwriter go after the DZO and everyone else involved to get their money back?

...................................................................

Exactly!
Subrogation can drag on for eight years after an accident. Wounded and witnesses will be repeatedly asked to remember that miserable day. Wounded will be forced to testify in interviews, hearings for discovery and multiple court appearances. The wounded will never be allowed to forget the accident and they will never receive enough dollars to compensate for the mental anguish imposed by the subrogation process. Subrogation can do far more secondary psychological damage than the original accident. Subrogation can prolong traumatic stress disorder for the rest of your life .

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riggerrob



Exactly!
Subrogation can drag on for eight years after an accident. Wounded and witnesses will be repeatedly asked to remember that miserable day. Wounded will be forced to testify in interviews, hearings for discovery and multiple court appearances. The wounded will never be allowed to forget the accident and they will never receive enough dollars to compensate for the mental anguish imposed by the subrogation process. Subrogation can do far more secondary psychological damage than the original accident. Subrogation can prolong traumatic stress disorder for the rest of your life .



Yeah but the lawyers could make a bunch of money..

Why don't we just go "Hey man I'll bet you your $4 against $25000 that you live through this."

And if they don't die we put the $4 in the beer fund and fuck the insurance company?

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