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Brad2

Wind Tunnel causing over confidence

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Hey there,

I am planning to to go and use the wind tunnel soon to better my freeflying and belly flying, it has really obvious benefits and is definitely worth the $$$.

However I have noticed that some of the guys who have dumped a shitload of dollars in the tunnel have gained an undesired side effect. They become complete douche bags.

Just curious if anyone here can shed some light on why a person with sub 200 jumps but 11+ hours tunnel suddenly turns into a massive sky god douche?

I've noticed a steady increase in douche beggary around tunnel rats and i hope its not a sign of times to come. Seriously tunnel time doesn't equal skill under canopy, probably connected to why people with some tunnel time and bugger all jumps are so eager to get hold of a Kitanna or Valkyrie and start to swoop at barely over 100 jumps.

I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on the issue because I don't know where these people came from. I've had some dumb ideas myself but just I'm curious about this.

Cheers

Blue ones

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No idea how it is exactly where you're at-but I have seen this same issue here in the States... Had some "angle flyers"/tunnel rats get pissy with me because I asked a guy on the plane during taxi to thread his chest strap. His buddy looked at me, said: "He's leading our jump, I think he knows how to put his F@$&ing chest strap on!" My response was "cool, show me".

I think it's a period of time that will pass, hopefully without too many fatalities. There will always be guys who think they are awesome because they are good at a sport that (really NO ONE) outside of the sport cares about.

My recommendation is to ignore then for the most part. That's the hardest thing for a showoff to handle. Only time you can't is if they are putting you or others in danger. Then hit up the experienced jumpers at the DZ to reign em in if it needs to be done.

-HFB
"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

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I don't have a direct answer to your question. The best I can give is an analogy.

The great golfer Ben Hogan said, "The driving range is study hall but the golf course is the test."

So perhaps the wind tunnel is the study hall and the actual skydive is the test.

Wisdom is knowing the difference between the two. I sounds like you've seen one too many tunnels rats confusing the two.

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On the flip side, I thought I was a fairly proficient belly flier until I got into a tunnel. I found out just how much work I needed. B|

Plus, I was a douch bag long before I ever set foot in a tunnel... the two may not be related.:P
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Brad2

Hey there,

I am planning to to go and use the wind tunnel soon to better my freeflying and belly flying, it has really obvious benefits and is definitely worth the $$$.

However I have noticed that some of the guys who have dumped a shitload of dollars in the tunnel have gained an undesired side effect. They become complete douche bags.

Just curious if anyone here can shed some light on why a person with sub 200 jumps but 11+ hours tunnel suddenly turns into a massive sky god douche?

I've noticed a steady increase in douche beggary around tunnel rats and i hope its not a sign of times to come. Seriously tunnel time doesn't equal skill under canopy, probably connected to why people with some tunnel time and bugger all jumps are so eager to get hold of a Kitanna or Valkyrie and start to swoop at barely over 100 jumps.

I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on the issue because I don't know where these people came from. I've had some dumb ideas myself but just I'm curious about this.

Cheers

Blue ones



There have already been fatalities because of a lack of canopy skills. Mad Skillz in the tunnel... does not mean you can downsize to a canopy that is going to kill you because you do not have the same skill level as other people on that jump with thousands of canopy rides.. Search the incidents forum.

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angryelf

Had some "angle flyers"/tunnel rats get pissy with me because I asked a guy on the plane during taxi to thread his chest strap. His buddy looked at me, said: "He's leading our jump, I think he knows how to put his F@$&ing chest strap on!" My response was "cool, show me".

Good response. ;) Mine probably would have been "obviously he doesn't." You should have gotten a huge "Thank you."

The best of the best also tend to be the most humble and willing to learn. Maybe these guys will figure that out with time. In the meantime, keep eye balling their gear and keep your distance from them in the landing pattern. :S

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Overconfidence... I can see that. Most people that are Dbags were probably Dbags before the tunnel too though. Like someone said earlier-in the grand scheme of things noone really cares how well you can fly around in a tube.

Flying in the tunnel is super challenging and very fun and rewarding. Just do the sport a favor and spread the love by being the good skydiver/flyer who isn't a douche :)
BASE 1384

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angryelf

No idea how it is exactly where you're at-but I have seen this same issue here in the States... Had some "angle flyers"/tunnel rats get pissy with me because I asked a guy on the plane during taxi to thread his chest strap. His buddy looked at me, said: "He's leading our jump, I think he knows how to put his F@$&ing chest strap on!" My response was "cool, show me".



I wouldn't have liked your attitude either. It's good to make sure the person is aware he has an open chest strap, but another to command one to fasten it.

In fact I think you were positioning yourself on a high horse as you started to dictate how others should use their gear.

Personally I always thread my chest strap before boarding, but other adults are free to choose themselves imo.

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Really? I think our freedom to be self determining adults ends with boarding the plane with our gear in a safe configuration, ready to jump.

Don't have your leg straps or chest strap on, don't get on the plane. I would have asked him to do the same.

Buckle in, gear set, helmets fastened.

If he wants to undo parts of his gear after he has exited the plane that is his problem.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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He's leading our jump



:D:D:D Having seen "leaders" go up line of flight for a good 10 seconds before turning into the direction they are supposed to be following, yeah.. sure... I'm sure that makes him a pro eXtReMe athlete.
Remster

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>Personally I always thread my chest strap before boarding, but other adults are free
>to choose themselves imo.

And other adults are free to tell them to put it on, since the result of not saying anything could well be death. (Also, many DZ's do require your rig to be on and jumpable before takeoff, in case of an emergency exit or a PC out the door.)

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I guess tunnel operators who advertise "indoor skydiving" encourage tunnel rats that they are competent to skydive.

Floating in a tunnel really has no connection to either the "sky", "diving" "or parachuting" something they don't seem to understand.

Any tunnel that sells itself as indoor skydiving should be torched.

That'll learn em!
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I don't think it has anything to do with how the tunnel is promoted.

I think it has to do with the company of peers that we keep.

A tunnel flyer with no jumps could be flying with world class skydivers, and be on par with their body flight.

Transition that tunnel flyer to the sky and the people he will know from the get go have thousands of jumps, be on the higher end of the canopy and overall risk curve.

Compare that to a new student of the street. He will know world class jumpers if they are his or her instructors, but that will be in the context off a student / instructor relationship. Do you think the student that didn't know the instructors and skygods from the tunnel will have the same experience and mindset of the tunnelrat convert?

My hypothesis is that some of these converts view risks differently because of their relationship with existing skydivers, and how they interact.

Similar things happen with student / instructor relationships when there is a romance or outside of skydiving relationship involved. We tend to overestimate our friends abilities, and underplay the risk for them.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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There are people who are awesome in the tunnel, get into skydiving then buy a small canopy at just over 100 jumps and pounds in.

There are people with no tunnel experience at all who get into skydiving then buy a small canopy at just over 100 jumps and pound in.

I blame the person, not the tunnel.

Also, I think this is a very small fraction of skydivers/tunnel fliers. Most people I know are sensible.

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I think it's even more simple than that. People who are inclined to act like assholes will do so if given a forum that enables them, especially if with little or no penalty. Thus: Skydiving, at every historical phase of the sport, has always had its share of self-important douchebags who behave that way at the DZ, and probably always will. So, the tunnel doesn't bring out the inner asshole in jumpers any more than anything else: they were already like that.

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billvon


And other adults are free to tell them to put it on, since the result of not saying anything could well be death. (Also, many DZ's do require your rig to be on and jumpable before takeoff, in case of an emergency exit or a PC out the door.)



The main issue in this case was the unwritten hierarchy in skydiving – not the chest strap.

Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.

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BMFin



The main issue in this case was the unwritten hierarchy in skydiving – not the chest strap.

Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.



That is pretty stupid, IMO. If an AFF student on his first jump points at my chest strap while in the airplane and tells me that it is not properly routed I would blush, say thank you and shut up. I have 260 jumps. I hope I keep thinking and behaving like that my whole live. This "unwritten hierarchy" is not an excuse to have an idiotic attitude, neither being sloppy in your procedures.

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Deimian

***

The main issue in this case was the unwritten hierarchy in skydiving – not the chest strap.

Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.



That is pretty stupid, IMO. If an AFF student on his first jump points at my chest strap while in the airplane and tells me that it is not properly routed I would blush, say thank you and shut up. I have 260 jumps. I hope I keep thinking and behaving like that my whole live. This "unwritten hierarchy" is not an excuse to have an idiotic attitude, neither being sloppy in your procedures.

This.
An improperly routed chest strap can kill the jumper, which fucks up the DZ, which fucks me & my buds up; and I might even give a shit about the life of the jumper even if he is a sophomoric asshat.
Can it also let his rig shift around more on his body, increasing the chance his pilot chute might come loose in the plane, go out the door and kill all of us? Maybe. Does it reflect an attitude that if he's careless about that, he's probably also careless about protecting his handles and his PC in the plane? I think so. So I'll tell him about it. If he doesn't like it, he can bite my ass.
Sometimes I'll notice a newer jumper eyeballing my chest strap in the plane because he's learned it's the right thing to do. I'll nod or say thanks to encourage him to keep doing it. Fuck the hierarchy.

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>Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to
>concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.

Perhaps, but probably not. Mary Santangelo regularly got out of her seat to get people to put their seatbelts on, and got quite in their face about it. Her goal was not to 'state her superior position' - it was to get them to put their seatbelt on.

I've carped on seatbelts, helmets and chest straps a fair amount, and I've let it go other times. In one case my not carping on it almost got someone killed. (Of course, in the end it was the guy's stupidity that almost got him killed.) In several cases my being a pain about it uncovered a problem that might have cost someone their life. In at least two cases they were "superior" to me in terms of experience or position.

So I'll continue to do it. And if the price I pay is people think I'm a jerk who just wants to make myself feel superior, I can live with that.

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BMFin

***
And other adults are free to tell them to put it on, since the result of not saying anything could well be death. (Also, many DZ's do require your rig to be on and jumpable before takeoff, in case of an emergency exit or a PC out the door.)



The main issue in this case was the unwritten hierarchy in skydiving – not the chest strap.

Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.

Rubbish!

Someone was showing that they cared about the safety and well being of a fellow skydiver.

Looking after your fellow skydiver should be always encouraged. Proven to save lives many times over.

Plenty have proved they can't look after themselves.

The "death through falling out of the harness" routine has been tested.

Follow up research is unnecessary.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Andy9o8

******

The main issue in this case was the unwritten hierarchy in skydiving – not the chest strap.

Someone wanted to state his superior position and the other one didn't want to concur. The chest strap was irrelevant.



That is pretty stupid, IMO. If an AFF student on his first jump points at my chest strap while in the airplane and tells me that it is not properly routed I would blush, say thank you and shut up. I have 260 jumps. I hope I keep thinking and behaving like that my whole live. This "unwritten hierarchy" is not an excuse to have an idiotic attitude, neither being sloppy in your procedures.

This.
An improperly routed chest strap can kill the jumper, which fucks up the DZ, which fucks me & my buds up; and I might even give a shit about the life of the jumper even if he is a sophomoric asshat.
Can it also let his rig shift around more on his body, increasing the chance his pilot chute might come loose in the plane, go out the door and kill all of us? Maybe. Does it reflect an attitude that if he's careless about that, he's probably also careless about protecting his handles and his PC in the plane? I think so. So I'll tell him about it. If he doesn't like it, he can bite my ass.
Sometimes I'll notice a newer jumper eyeballing my chest strap in the plane because he's learned it's the right thing to do. I'll nod or say thanks to encourage him to keep doing it. Fuck the hierarchy.

Another +1. I don't think naming the "unwritten hierarchy" is off - just that it is a corollary of the skygod/a**hat/ego mentality. We're just talking past each other here.

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DougH


Similar things happen with student / instructor relationships when there is a romance or outside of skydiving relationship involved. We tend to overestimate our friends abilities, and underplay the risk for them.

Very perceptive insight, Doug. I think you may be the closest to the truth. :)
I've seen that scenario too many times, but had never applied it to tunnel vs. skydiving.

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