Should D license requirements be changed?

[Armour666 0]

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Guess who gets to go on the night-time demo?

***

I know this one!!










The blonde with the big tits?!

I have a question If there is no chance of getting a pice of the blond do you still bring her or the next person that would be buying the beer?

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[airtwardo 6]

Depends on a couple of things.....the definition of 'no chance'...and the type of beer!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

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...
There is all this talk on retention in this sport and to make it easier for up jumpers to achieve licenses.

I don't believe all of that.

Used to be D needs 200 jumps. Now it's 500 as of oh, about mid-2003.

Focus has been on training...better training makes better skydivers which makes it easier to achieve the licenses.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Armour666 0]

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I don't believe all of that.

Used to be D needs 200 jumps. Now it's 500 as of oh, about mid-2003.

Focus has been on training...better training makes better skydivers which makes it easier to achieve the licenses.

But wasn't one of those reason to expose jummpers to more sitituations because they will have more time in the air? I agree better training is making it easier to achive a licence.

I'm close to my A but I feel I'm still missing a lot. I still seek out as much information as I can, but some people are content to have there A in 25 jumps and off they go unsupervised and leave it at that and just jump .

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[airtwardo 6]

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Focus has been on training...better training makes better skydivers which makes it easier to achieve the licenses.

I gotta differ with ya there too Pops...

(gonna have to get ya drunk next time I see ya, so ya know I'm not just cappin' on ya all the time )

Having been around the sport 3/4's of the times I've orbited the sun...and seeing how training had 'evolved' over the past 30 some years, I would say the focus is probably LESS on actual training and more on quick advancement.

Granted there are 'easier & faster' methods of training these days...but I believe it's BECAUSE of that, the number of jumps was raised to qualify for a D license.

Back when we jumped rocks for gear...and packed for ourselves, could only afford one rig, and took cramped Cessna rides for an hour to 9500 feet for altitude, on the sporadic weekends that a pilot would show up sober enough to fly, and the winds were low enough to keep the round parachute you jumped in the same county...AFTER ya landed.

~it took considerably longer to get 200 jumps than it does now at a full time turbine drop-zone where the weather is paradise 51 weeks a year.

It's not a shock these days for someone to rack up 200 jumps in a month...took me almost two years 'back in the day' and I was hard core by anyone's measure, in fact I qualified for my I and my D faster than anyone else at that DZ ever had.

Hell...there WAS a time ya had to have 200 jumps to even learn how to jump a square parachute!

I think the number of jumps was increased to extend the amount of 'time' in the sport, hopefully insuring that the applicant had learned a bit more, by being exposed to it for longer than it usually takes to knock out the 200.



Have you ever lurked an AFFI certification dive?

Don't tell me the training is better...


I 're-trained' a couple of friends last year that graduated AFF at a major DZ without having ever cut-away in a hanging harness.







The 'focus' is on $tudent advancement, not real training...

Get 'em comfortable and keep 'em happy in the dark, so they keep spending money.

Keep 'em alive with gadgets and 'kiddie pool' rules...

There are 'Skydivers' out there that WON'T JUMP without an ADD!!!

Removing an RSL 'all by yer $tupid $elf' makes one of the most popular rigs today...'UNjumpable'!

Push the 'colors on the numbers' up any higher on an altimeter, and ya might as well just track & pull right out the door!

Doing a legal night jump or two, as one of the minimum requirements for a D license isn't out of line...it doesn't expose ya to more 'risk' than dating a red head...

It makes you commit to something you have to take the time to LEARN to do the right way...just like flaring a downwind, stall turns, entering 10th and spotting for a head down...

Don't have to be GREAT at it ALL, just good enough to survive.


I about split a gut laughing when some guy tried to TIP me a few weeks ago, when I showed him how to use a fid and adjust his brake settings...

~THAT'$ how things have 'really' changed!





Some people would rather lower the bar or just 'buy the training' without question, even if it's not actually relevant...(pool water jump training) instead of going through the 'real' experience, it not the same thing.

It's hard, because if it was easy...EVERYONE would do it!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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You CONTINUE to make this an issue of manliness rather than relevance. A license is not an award for macho.

No Kallend. No matter how much you say something, it doesn't make it true.

I do not think its a matter of "manliness".

.

I suppose you didn't write:

"Yes, I am paying attention to the thread and for what its worth, my 2 cents, its clear to me you and others like you would like to have the night jump requirement removed from the D-License because you're "not up to it". There, I said it."

and

"I think the night jump requirement should STAY on the D-License because it demonstraits ... courage "

Someone must have been posting under your name
"

Yes, I said that. Yes, I meant it. But how does that equate to "manliness". I know plenty of women with legit D-Licenses... and they're NOT manly.

Anyway, you want to be right. Fine. You're right.
























*wanders off to buy airto and bozo a beer*

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...at a full time turbine drop-zone where the weather is paradise 51 weeks a year.

Where's that DZ!!!!!????

[georgerussia 0]

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In fact, I'd like to see additional reqs on the D license - including some proficiency in freeflying, CrW, higher performance canopy flight in addition to accuracy, more advanced RW skills (mantis-based flying), gear knowledge, more in depth safety and FAR review, freefall drift and spotting knowledge in more depth.

Looks like you mixed everything together. I can understand gear, freefall drift and spotting knowledge, as this is what jumper and others safety is based on. I can understand some proficiency in CRW, as unintentional CRW might happen without your wish. I see no reason to show some proficiency in both freeflying, advanced RW, swooping and high-performance canopies.
How would it benefit the person only flies wingsuits, and does not care about RW, freefly or swoops? How useful is high-performance canopy for pilots who are not going to downsize - is it possible that after pull you instantly find yourself under Katana 120 instead of Spectre 210?

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skill - basic skills in freeflying and advanced belly, CrW and swooping basics, etc
safety - exit order (and why), basic gear knowledge for checks, traffic issues, etc
knowledge - FARs, teaching, BSRs, coaching, etc

So your 'master skydiver' would know a little of every discipline. What's "master" in it?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[crotalus01 0]

just curious, if night jumps are so godawful dangerous and complicated then why are we allowed to do them with a B license?
Seems like if they were that dangerous then the D license would allow you to do them, not that they would be a requirement for a D. Kinda like the B allows you to do water landings - Can't do an intentional water landing with an A right?

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[kallend 1,621]

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>then why, when these jumpers do find themselves on a jump after
>sunset, do we NOT count those as night jumps toward the requirement?

I'd think that if:

1) the jump was well after sunset (i.e. dark) and
2) the jumper got the appropriate training

then they SHOULD be counted. I'd be for changing the SIM to accommodate that.

Why aren't night jumps required to manifest for a sunset load, then. Your argument is specious? You do NOT need a "D" to get on a sunset load.

PS to everyone - the titles "Expert", "Master", etc. are no longer used. Check the SIM if you don't believe me. That is just a diversion from the issue of the meaning of a license. It is NOT an award of merit or a mark of being macho, it is JUST a license.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[popsjumper 2]

Nah, Jim...you'd have to go a Looooooong way come anywhere near irking me. And just to tweak your nose, we don't do nearly as much "seat of the pants" training anymore, do we?
.....

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...I would say the focus is probably LESS on actual training and more on quick advancement.

OVERALL training you have no one to argue with you.
In-air skills is another matter.

I think better training results in quicker advancement. The advancement requirements have been about air skills.

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"Granted there are 'easier & faster' methods of training these days...but I believe it's BECAUSE of that, the number of jumps was raised to qualify for a D license."

"I think the number of jumps was increased to extend the amount of 'time' in the sport, hopefully insuring that the applicant had learned a bit more, by being exposed to it for longer than it usually takes to knock out the 200."

Ergo...more time to provide more and better training which makes better skydivers! If I said/implied anything other than agreement with you on this, slap me silly!

I imagined the USPA thought process was something along these lines...
"Well, we can get train 'em faster and they can now meet the D-license requirements easier but they are missing out on the benefits of long-time exposure to the sport. Let's bump the numbers so they can get some more exposure and experience before we test 'em on the air skills for the license."

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Have you ever lurked an AFFI certification dive?

Don't tell me the training is better...

I have lurked several...I've saw stuff on both ends of the spectrum.
I see AFF videos that were on both ends of the spectrum.
Training back-in-the-day encompassed both ends of the spectrum.

EDITED TO ADD: My own participation the AFFI course showed me that I was still on the wrong end of the air-skills spectrum.
They didn't have to pass/fail me...my first jump gave me the clue so I used the "incomplete" option. I'll try again some other time.


THAT hasn't changed and most likely never will.
What HAS changed is methodology and technology....all improving training. I don't see how you can argue that.

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Some people would rather lower the bar or just 'buy the training' without question, even if it's not actually relevant...(pool water jump training) instead of going through the 'real' experience, it not the same thing.

Agreed....add night jumps into a lit-up-like-daylight-area.


Jim, as I said before this thread is not about "lowering the bar" or "buying the training".

It's about putting the requirement on those who have the need for it.

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And since this thread has been totally unproductive in providing a real reason for the night jump requirement let's move on...

You got water around your DZ? An ocean? A lake? A pond? Who is the most likely jumper to accidently land in the water? Students! Why are they NOT required to have anything more than a verbal briefing on landing in water? If they survive it, does it count as water trianing complete for the B-license?
Answer me that!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Good point:

I got a response from USPA:

"Hi Andy,
This has been argued back and forth by the Board of Directors many
times in the past. Everything you mention below has been brought up in the
arguments. In the end, the Board elected to leave the night jump
requirements at the D level instead of moving it to the PRO rating
requirement. As you said below, the D license is only necessary for a PRO rating
or a tandem rating anymore, and the Board decided that the night jumps
were important experience to have for both ratings, [B]as demos are
sometimes done at night and many tandems are performed at the end of the day
when the light is fading. "



BTW...who is holding the gun to the Demo guy's head making him do a night demo? Shouldn't that choice be his? Shouldn't that "Night Jump" requirement be on those who WANT to do demo night jumps?

Is the requirement just stuck in somewhere as a $$$-saving catch-all so that endorsements for those who want it don't have to be recorded and tracked?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,380]

> Who is the most likely jumper to accidently land in the water? Students!
> Why are they NOT required to have anything more than a verbal briefing
> on landing in water?

Because:

a) they are required to use flotation and
b) they are under the direct supervision of an instructor, who has better judgement (and spotting skills) than they do.

But if you wanted to move it to the A license, I'd support it.

[MrBrant 0]

I think you guys should just call it a "D" Certificate of Proficiency

[peckerhead 0]

To add to what Nick said:

I also grew up in a time when 25 jumps was an "A" 50 was "B" and 100 was the big "C"

The "D" was hard to get at only 200 jumps. (It sure did seem like a lot at the time)

Nobody I knew ever wasted the paperwork or money to get an A or B. We all started at C.

The C license used to be like your learners permit and the D meant you really had your shit together.

But, to get a D that meant you had at least 200 freefalls, a water jump, and 2 night jumps ( 1 solo and 1 rw) Not to mention everything else like accuracy, freefall skills, etc. I think I qualified for my C at around 150 jumps and my D at around 350. THat may seem like a lot nowadays but I did not jump a square (ram-air) canopy until I had 56 jumps.


In the old system you could be a Jumpmaster with a C license but you could not be an Instructor until you had a D.

It only makes sense....How can you Teach night jumping if you have never done one? How can you Teach Water jumping if you have not done it yourself?
Do you just tell your student " Hey, I have never done this but I did jump into a pool with a harness on one time"? How do you give a briefing to a group of novices about jumping at night if you have only wore dark goggles on a sunset load?

I think it was great that the D requirements went up to 500 jumps and I also think it is great that the C numbers went up as well. These changes made it harder not easier.

Don't drop the night jumps and bring back the water jump.

.....And at least one Mr Bill

[popsjumper 2]

Bill, you've been off your normal game this entire thread...what's up? You been sick lately? Seriously.

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Because:
a) they are required to use flotation

...at your DZ that has a body of water.

Alright all you DZs out there with ponds, lakes, swimming pools and other potential drowning hazards within miles...you better put floatation devices on all your students!

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b) they are under the direct supervision of an instructor, who has better judgement (and spotting skills) than they do.

...and who is steering the student's parachute away from the ponds, lakes, swimming pools and other potential drowning hazards.

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But if you wanted to move it to the A license, I'd support it.

I'd like to see it part of the FJC even if you are doing in the freakin' desert. But then, I'm a hard-ass.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Somebody asked, so I’ll tell you.
Here’s some of what, in my perfect little world, I would have as applied to today’s world:
- Note that much of my decision-making process stems from considering existing accuracy requirements.
- Also note that it is choice-based and it's geared to providing the training for the activities that you choose to participate in. There is nothing that says you can't obtain the endorsements and never again do any of the activities if you so choose.
- Note that I have only addressed certain areas of the skydiving experience but the concept could be applied to all other areas as well such as canopy piloting (CP endorsements).
- And finally note that these thoughts are presented as food-for-thought and not a set-in-stone proposal.

(are you taking notes?)

Caveat:
All training should be done by qualified (trained and endorsed) jumpmasters.

The Pyro part is my concession to the old farts in that the shit is so dangerous to so many people other than yourself that only a pro should even think about trying it and only then after signing over his entire estate to ME. Jim…I’m talkin’ to YOU.


Basic Water Training:
- at FJC

Night jumps: (NDJ endorsement for jumpmasters)
NB – basic training and endorsement for anyone wanting to do them after B-license with a qualified jumpmaster until C-license (must do first 2 with jumpmaster supervision regardless of license classification).
ND – specialized training and endorsement for Demos for anyone wanting to do them for C-license and above (must have basics completed).

Water Jumps: (WDJ endorsement for jumpmasters)
WB – basic training and endorsement for anyone wanting to do them after C-license under the direct supervision of a qualified jumpmaster until D-license.
WD - specialized training and endorsement for Demos for anyone wanting to do them for D-license and above (must have basics completed).

Pyro (PDJ endorsement for jumpmasters)
PB- training and endorsement for anyone wanting to do them after Pro Rating with a qualified jumpmaster until cleared to self-supervise.
PD - cleared to self-supervise pyro jumps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rwieder 0]

The only thing standing between me and a "D" is the night jump. I'm NOT going to do it. I never stay pass sundown, and on a rare occasion stay there long enough for the sunset load. I have no intention of jumping out at night, neither do i intend to put myself in that position. I could have had my "D" already without the night jump, but i declined the offer. My hypocrosey goes only so far.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[popsjumper 2]

I LIKE people that stand up for their beliefs!
Good stuff, dude.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CDRINF 1]

One reason no one has mentioned is that we need a night jump requirement and standards somewhere in the licensing and training structure if for no other reason than skydivers, being skydivers, will want to try one. Some crazy SOB will want to jump at night (and I am one of those) and we need a pool of trained people in the community who have that experience to train and advise others.

If we look at whats killing people in the sport, in many cases it's the activities for which there is (or did not used to be) any formal training requirement. What would we do if night jumps started killing people? Ban jumping after dark, or train the jumper population to do them right?

I had some good, experienced skydivers teach me about night jumps, and I could be confident they were trained and tested to the same standard I was trying to achieve. To remove the requirement would make this more of a hit or miss thing.

CDR

[popsjumper 2]

Not picking on you specifically but you are the last one to mention it. Where in the hell did any of you guys get the idea that anyone was proposing eliminating night jump training?

Are any of you guys purposely doing these things to de-rail topics?

Oh wait...this is DZ.com isn't it...
My bad.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[matthewcline 0]

Mine actually says "Master" on it.

Since the "C" has been updated there is no need for a "D" for those who won't/don't do night jumps. There the issue is mute.

If one would want to be "PRO" rated meet the standards and get a FULL "D" license. Other wise they can do Demo's in the open fields and Lvl 1 sights.

USPA should just lets the wings and things page requirement be Membership, maybe then they will see more membership request the wings and things.

Just My Opinion.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mktoson 0]

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I'm close to my A but I feel I'm still missing a lot. I still seek out as much information as I can, but some people are content to have there A in 25 jumps and off they go unsupervised and leave it at that and just jump .

I still have my A license. Have I done my water training...yes. Have I done 2 night jumps...yes. Have a met all the other criteria to get my D...yes. Am I knowledgeable when it comes to the SIM...yes.

I believe that most skydivers continue to learn after they get off student status regardless of additional licenses. Just because that learning isn't documented...ie B, C, D license, doesn't mean that they are out there clueless and just jumping.

For me personally, additional licenses mean nothing. Sure they are supposed to show a level of proficency but we all know that they don't gauge that very well. Think about the last time you were at the dz and on a dive with someone you didn't know. Did you ask them what license they held or did you ask them how many jumps they had? And I'm not saying that jump numbers equate to skill but it is still a better gauge than the license aquired.

So far, this is the oldest I've ever been.

[marks2065 0]

i knew a jumper that grabbed the wrong rig and got a big suprise or should i say small surprize - found 50 sq ft less than he was expecting

[marks2065 0]

so does that mean our new uspa card will look like this D-18925 - nj 3-2-2007 #20001 - cp 3-2-2007 - fs 3-2-2007 #18295 - crw 3-2-2007 #25555 - wj 3-2-2007 #32547 - vrw 3-2-2007 #17525 - bw 3-2-2007 #10255 - bm 3-2-2007 #15266 ect ect ect ..... sounds confusing to me

[rehmwa 2]

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I agree totally that one should have knowledge of all these things, BUT most of what you have listed should be demonstrated WELL before someone is applying for a D license.

right, you have to demonstrate training, knowledge and skill BEFORE getting the license.

I was suggesting qualifications to get the license.

I don't know why you read it as needing the license before doing those things. That's backwards.

hope that clears it up

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants