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Croc

Should D license requirements be changed?

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. Atleast that is how I see it, and why it is as it is.
A is a learning permit
B is night and water and coach
C is high altitude
D is instructor

.



No, instructor rating is instructor. PRO rating is PRO. "D" is "D". Don't pretend "D" is something that it is not.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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But the "D" IS a pre-requisite to be PRO, AFF Instructor, Tandem Instructor and for all Course Directors.

As far as I can tell in a scanning over several of the license reqs for other countries the US system is the weakest and easiest system of all.

I have heard some say do away with the "D" license, I still do not see why nor heard a viable argument. Unless it is no longer a pre-requisite to earn ratings or run Instructor Courses.

I think USPA should never have taken "Master" off of it (it did help in dealing with some Federalies), but made it actually truthful with stricter standards.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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But the "D" IS a pre-requisite to be PRO, AFF Instructor, Tandem Instructor and for all Course Directors.

As far as I can tell in a scanning over several of the license reqs for other countries the US system is the weakest and easiest system of all.

I have heard some say do away with the "D" license, I still do not see why nor heard a viable argument. Unless it is no longer a pre-requisite to earn ratings or run Instructor Courses.

I think USPA should never have taken "Master" off of it (it did help in dealing with some Federalies), but made it actually truthful with stricter standards.



The concept of a license as a pre-requisite is absurd. It is permission to do something. If you wish to test night jump ability for an instructor rating, it should be part of that rating. If you want something for a PRO rating, it should be part of that rating.

In addition, to claim that making 2 night jumps is appropriate pre-requisite for giving night jump briefings as an instructor is equally absurd. The "D" requirement does not even specify a performance standard to be met. You could totally f*ck-up and be seriously injured on your night jump and STILL log it towards the "D".

Actually, I think the "D" is totally redundant.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Then why are all those people whinning about night jumps?

If it is just permission to do some thing (jump in this case) and you don't need night jumps to jump, what is the problem?

This has come full circle in my opinion. We (the collective community) have argued are selves back to the begining.

The USPA system is easy, almost weak in regards to standards. To do away with a license will make it even weaker and the US Skydiving Community will suffer for it.

Just My Opinion.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Quit whining about the night jumps and just do them.***

Really!

What IS the hang up so many people seem to have about jumping at night?:S



One major "hang-up" is the unnecessarily added exposure to danger.

You guys are saying all kinds of things in support of night jumps and not one of you has given a valid reason for having to do them for a D-license that justifies the added risk.

Accuracy? A no-brainer. Night Jumps? What the hell for? Let those who want to expose themselves go ahead and do it. Why make it a requirement for everyone?
There is no valid reason for having to jump at night. No valid reason to require you to even get on an airplane at night.

How a about a "restricted" D-license? I could meet all the other requirements for a D and laugh my ass off at the "no night jump" restriction on it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I totally agree. What in the hell does doing a night jump actually prove?

I have all the requirements to get my D license and have chosen not to just because I have no desire to do a night jump. People have said, "What if you are on a plane and it is dark and you need to get out?"
My reply, "Well then I will get out!" Most likely if there is an emergency in an airplane at night (which I would have to willingly be on a jump plane at night in the first place) the conditions are probably not going to be as tailored for a night jump as they are when they are organized. There won't be lights in the landing area and people are not going to be decked out with the usual chem lights and strobes and there may not be a perfect full moon and clear sky. It will be a true emergency and I would have to deal with it in the current not so perfect conditions.

At least most of the requirements for any ratings that I actually want to obtain only require a C License now. For now, I am happy with that and will not be bending over backwards to get my D.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

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>Night Jumps? What the hell for?

Because history has shown that most jumpers will jump after sunset pretty often in their skydiving careers. Best not to make your first dark jump ever on the final state record attempt with 80 other jumpers.

>How a about a "restricted" D-license? I could meet all the other
>requirements for a D and laugh my ass off at the "no night jump"
>restriction on it.

An excellent solution - provided you also have the willingness to scratch off loads that are at risk of busting the sunset time.

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I There won't be lights in the landing area and people are not going to be decked out with the usual chem lights and strobes and there may not be a perfect full moon and clear sky. It will be a true emergency and I would have to deal with it in the current not so perfect conditions.



You've just described landing off the DZ at night. Definitely makes you focus on the here and now.

Night jumps are a blast. Night CRW is even better. Landing a Night CRW formation is even better yet. Night water jumps are cool, too. And of course Night water CRW, too.


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>How a about a "restricted" D-license? I could meet all the other
>requirements for a D and laugh my ass off at the "no night jump"
>restriction on it.

An excellent solution - provided you also have the willingness to scratch off loads that are at risk of busting the sunset time.

I scratch off those loads all the time already. Not that I'm anywhere near getting my D yet, but I do like that solution.

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A "D" license is an "expert" license, if one wishes to be considered an "expert" than they have to prove proficiency in many different areas, not just in ideal conditions.
Besides, with proper training and preparation they can be performed very safely and are a lot of fun!

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>

>How a about a "restricted" D-license? I could meet all the other
>requirements for a D and laugh my ass off at the "no night jump"
>restriction on it.

An excellent solution - provided you also have the willingness to scratch off loads that are at risk of busting the sunset time.



Which is what most of us who don't have the desire to do a night jump have the tendency to do anyway.

Plus, there is a difference between doing a jump just after sunset where there is still ambient light and doing a jump under the conditions of organized night jumps.

I am all for a "restricted D license" if that would solve the issue.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

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to graduate any program you will have to do things you don't like or will never use again - the younger generation is always looking for a way out or to get buy - sorry but not every group will lower its standards to make life easier - so suck it up or don't get a D - i'm tired of people getting what i have earned for half the work - a D license is an achievement if your not up to it than don't get it but don't expect everyone to lower the standards because little johny or jill's parents have been making life easier for the little ones of the world. if you want easier go back to grade school and have mom and dad make it easier - this is the real wolrd and a D license needs 2 night jumps!

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.. if you want easier go back to grade school and have mom and dad make it easier - this is the real wolrd and a D license needs 2 night jumps!



Fine attitude, dude. Quite nice. Guess what? We don't do a lot of the crazy things we used to in this sport. Additional safety is one of the things we have now.

So you're willing to add the element of risk and you think everyone should also. Nice.

You reasoning for doing night jumps is not valid, sorry.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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A "D" license is an "expert" license, if one wishes to be considered an "expert" than they have to prove proficiency in many different areas, not just in ideal conditions.
Besides, with proper training and preparation they can be performed very safely and are a lot of fun!



Where does it say anything about "expert"?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>Night Jumps? What the hell for?

Because history has shown that most jumpers will jump after sunset pretty often in their skydiving careers. .



I seriously doubt that.

Even if true, you don't need a "D" to get on a sunset load anyway, so it's quite irrelevant.

There is no criterion for success in a night jump. You could break your femurs and pelvis and still get signed off. The requirement is SILLY.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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...There won't be lights in the landing area and people are not going to be decked out with the usual chem lights and strobes and there may not be a perfect full moon and clear sky...



:D:D
This one of the things that makes it all so very unnecessary and so very funny. So they jump into a lighted-up-like-daylight area and call it a night jump. What have they proven other than the ability to find a lighted-up-like-daylight area from some sort of altitude. But it counts toward the D even if you miss the entire area and break yourself up!

Yep, there's an "expert" skydiver for you.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I sort of agree with you, but I also enjoy night jumps and do think that we learn a lot about skydiving by doing them. I don't think they're an unreasonable requirement for the highest skydiving license there is. But at the same time, anyone with a B license is qualified to do them. You don't have to prove anything beyond passing the B license written test that you're able to safely conduct a night jump. You can be an instructor without doing night jumps. Can you conduct a night jump briefing without ever having made a night jump? So I'm not sure what is proved by actually making the jump... as you said, there's no accuracy requirement or no-injury requirement, so you don't prove that you really learned anything just by having made 2 night jumps.

But shit, they're fun as hell. Maybe you should just suck it up... :P

Dave

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..
But shit, they're fun as hell. Maybe you should just suck it up... :P



Nah. Dave I'm all FOR you having fun and nobody begrudges you that.
We're against having to do them for no valid reason (waiver capabilities aside).

Maybe "I just don't want to do them" is a valid reason for a waiver?

The key word is "requirement". Can anyone provide input on why it was made a requirement in the first place?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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it is just that every time you turn around it seams like when someone cries it's to hard or i don't want to do that someone makes it easier by reducing the effort required - everything that has a good reward at the end is worth the effort and by lowering the standards to get a D license would take way from everyone that earned it the harder way and were would it stop - maybe we should let people get their a at 10 jumps or without landing in the landing area or a b without water training hell i'll never jump around water - if anything i think it should be harder - everyone in skydiving knows that 500 jumps is just the beginning learning

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a d license is required for most instructor ratings and on that basis night jumps should be required just incase you end up with a student after sunset you may not want to do the jump but how many times have you seen the dzo see dollars and pressure you to do the jump anyway

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