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Croc

Should D license requirements be changed?

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< What valid reasons make night jumps a requirement for a D-license?

3/4 of the planet is covered in water...make a water jump.
1/2 the day is covered in darkness...make a night jump.



Now THAT'S the closest anyone has come yet.


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Do what I do and CHEAT ........bring along lots of light! ;)



And should anyone decide to do that, they should have both night and pyrotechnics training,eh?

One of these days I'm going to join you in that.:)
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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...make the night jumps, they issue an ego when you land.


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:(>:(>:( All I ever get is a CHECK!;)$$$>:(



Same here. Ive collected a bunch of checks over the years.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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>Sorry, Bill but it's not a misperception. It's a call-it-like-it-is statement of reality.

Well, it's as much a call-it-like-it-is statement of reality as "a tandem is just another skydive" or "a demo isn't any harder than a regular jump." And it's easy to think those things until you've done them.

But do a few night demos into a golf course (even a lit golf course) that would have been pretty straightforward during the day, or do a tandem with a difficult passenger and a newish videographer, or do a demo where the wind is 180 different than reported on the ground - and you start to learn why it's not as easy as some people think. It takes training and experience to handle such jumps - and it's best to _get_ that experience under controlled conditions after training.

>Please include some input on the question at hand - What valid
>reasons make night jumps a requirement for a D-license?

Because most skydivers will, at some point in their skydiving career, push sunset until they are landing in very dim (even dark) conditions. I know, "just say no" and all that. But history has shown that people DON'T "just say no" all the time. And having the experience to deal with landing under those conditions when a skydiver inevitably encounters them can save lives.

But as I've said before - if there is a jumper out there with a vision problem, or a depth-perception problem, or someone who just plain doesn't want to do them _and_ has more dedication to safety than your average skydiver - just get a restricted D license. That way you never have to do them.

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But as I've said before - if there is a jumper out there with a vision problem, or a depth-perception problem, or someone who just plain doesn't want to do them _and_ has more dedication to safety than your average skydiver - just get a restricted D license. That way you never have to do them.



Yes, and here is the excerpt from the SIM on restricted licenses.

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1. Under extreme circumstances, such as physical handicaps, a USPA Restricted license may be issued to applicants who are unable to meet all of the specific license requirements.

2. A person may be qualified for a Restricted license if the rating holder has (all of the following):


a. submitted a petition to the Safety & Training Committee, containing:


(1) type of license requested

(2) specific license requirement(s) which cannot be met

(3) circumstances which prevent compliance with license requirements

(4) license application completed, except for the restricted activities

b. met all requirements for the license desired except for those listed in the petition

3. Each application will be considered individually on its own merit, totally without precedent.

4. Restricted license numbers will be followed by the letter "R" (e.g., C-11376R).



Notice that it doesn't say anything about what is restricted when holding a restricted license, only that it is a restricted license. What does that mean? As far as I can tell, a person holding a restricted D license has all the same priveleges as a regular D license holder which are:

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4. Persons holding a USPA D license are able to exercise all privileges of a C-license holder, are eligible for all USPA ratings......



So you get a restricted D license. Restricted from what? Am I missing something here? Looks to me like you don't have to do night jumps.
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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If you CHOOSE to do night jumps (for fun, for demos, whatever) then yes, you need the training and the demonstative proof that you can handle it...ergo, the Night Jump endorsement on a D-license.



To do night jumps, you need a B-license and nothing else. Why would you need to get a night endorsement on a D-license?

Lets say you could get a D-license without a night jump endorsement. How would you go about getting the endorsement? Jump at night? Doesn't make much sense to me...

Dave

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...Blah blah blah...

Because most skydivers will, at some point in their skydiving career, push sunset until they are landing in very dim (even dark) conditions. I know, "just say no" and all that. But history has shown that people DON'T "just say no" all the time. And having the experience to deal with landing under those conditions when a skydiver inevitably encounters them can save lives.



You would have a point IF, and ONLY IF, a "D" were a condition of being allowed on a sunset load. It isn't, and your reason is silly.

A license is, by definition, a permission to do something. There is no privilege granted by a "D" for which a night jump has the slightest relevance.

A license is not an award of merit or a recognition of status, it is just a permission to do something, and its criteria should relate to the permissions granted.

Yes, I HAVE done night jumps. I thought the requirement was stupid then, I still think the requirement is stupid.

"I did it so you should do it, you pussy" is NOT a valid reason.

People aren't killing themselves on sunset loads, they are killing themselves flying into others or hooking into the ground. If anything, some advanced canopy or CRW training needs to be added to the requirements. Night jumps are just a distraction.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[replyYes, I HAVE done night jumps. I thought the requirement was stupid then, I still think the requirement is stupid.


.



Professor, you have been beating that same old drum for years now....its going to wear out at some point.
I have a question for you.
You thought the requirement was "stupid then and its stupid now", why pray tell did you do the night jumps ?
Ego?
Peer pressure ?
Afraid of being called.......a pussy ? :)


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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Skydiving, before money and greed ruled it, consisted of a series of "trials" one had to complete in order to, so to speak, "join the club." I don’t think we meant it to be a weeding out process, but that's exactly what it was. You made your first jump by yourself, and all your early student jumps were alone except maybe a jumpmaster/student two way, at the end, if you were lucky. It was a "hack it or pack it" program in which nobody much cared if you did one or the other.

In those days you learned before you went up and practiced on the way down. Nowadays you learn on a way down. And after landing your miscues are masked in a ton of positive reinforcements like, "You looked good though," as you spun like a top and busted the pull altitude, "you were smiling and everything!" So a turkey goes home feeling like he's doing all right when for his, and our own sakes, he should be thinking golf or bowling. Today we lament when a student quits, and back then we thought it fortunate the "system" was working.

If you made it through student status you then endured the next hundred jumps, or so, as the invisible man, basically ignored and barely tolerated on the drop zone. If you were unfortunate enough to pick up the "dangerous" tag during this time, you were basically finished, as far as making it as a locally respected skydiver.

Sometimes I get accused (mostly in the BASE zone) of knocking the current generation too much, but I, and others like me, point these things out because we care. And I'm telling you in order to know where we are going you have to understand where we've been. In talking with some other "old timers" a few weeks ago the subject of "The Skydiver of the Year" award came up and we were doubled over in laughter, until someone said, "Skydiving had finally jumped the shark," and the laughs almost became tears and left us shaking our heads.

And to further illustrate just how bad things are now, if twenty years ago someone like Airtwardo called you a "pussy" you'd go home beaming because someone of his statue had finally noted your existence and it meant you'd gotten the nod.

We now "value" the new blood (read their money) over the old, so instead of building a solid foundation on which the sport can stand we have a teetering house of cards. And it will only take a strong puff of wind and the whole thing is going to fall over.

Now before you get me all wrong as an Instructor, an AFF evaluator, or whatever, I was always considered a "softy" by my peers, as I didn’t want people to endure what I did coming up. I don’t know how many times Rick Horn would pull me aside after reviewing a video of an AFF evaluation dive where I passed a guy, and he'd call me a, "Santa Clause." But I'd argue that I saw the makings in that person, knew he would get better, and fought Rick on the fact the whole AFF evaluation program was flawed anyway. I was the first one to say I thought it was too hard to become a skydiver, to add a rating, to become someone to be counted on. But I'm learning the error in that thinking.

Rick was right. The beauty of the sky is not to be gifted, it's to be earned. And I think if today's DZOs would just realize the reason people quit so easily is simply because those people have nothing invested. There is too much hand holding. In the old days we used to say if you made it to a hundred jumps you'd be a skydiver forever. And it was true because it was so damn hard to get to that point. Now you see people with a thousand jumps hang it up and walk away without thinking twice.

It used to be the DZOs, even USPA, only facilitated our jumping; now they lead us around by the nose. We are forgetting it's the rank and file jumpers who should be governing the sport, and not by regulation, but by peer pressure. To steal a good line from my friend Jan, and change it just a little, let's not just take back the sky, let's take back the whole damn sport . . .

When I showed up at Perris for the first time with just over a hundred jumps, I already knew a strong personality was useful in getting ahead so I screwed up my courage and walked up to first person I saw, and it was Allen Richter.

"Hi," I said, and stuck out my hand, "my name is Nick." And not only did he leave my hand hanging out there in mid-air, he said, "So what."

It took me a few years but Allen Richter is my brother and always will be.

So go ahead and remove the night jump. But just know you are weeding out the last of the hoops instead of weeding out the jumpers who can’t get through them. Skydiving is not for everyone and we'd better stop acting like it is . . .

Skydive Radio: http://media.libsyn.com/media/skydiveradio/sr15_11_15_05s.mp3

NickD :)BASE 194

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Good questions.
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...To do night jumps, you need a B-license and nothing else. Why would you need to get a night endorsement on a D-license?


B-qualified allows you to do night jumps (after the training which at this time is a simple briefing).
I'm thinking an endorsement on your D would qualify you to do demos and such at night and would involve some additional, in-depth training.

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Lets say you could get a D-license without a night jump endorsement. How would you go about getting the endorsement? Jump at night?


Yes, and it would involve some additional, in-depth training over and above what you already got for the B-license training.

I don't think anyone would argue the point that night-time demos are inherently more risky than night jumps at your local DZ...therefore, an endorsement for those who choose to do them.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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...Blah blah blah...

Because most skydivers will, at some point in their skydiving career, push sunset until they are landing in very dim (even dark) conditions. I know, "just say no" and all that. But history has shown that people DON'T "just say no" all the time. And having the experience to deal with landing under those conditions when a skydiver inevitably encounters them can save lives.



You would have a point IF, and ONLY IF, a "D" were a condition of being allowed on a sunset load. It isn't, and your reason is silly.



I completely agree. I have been on many "just after sunset loads" as he is talking about. I didn't need a D License to get on that load nor did anyone question my abilities to execute my skydive safely.

If you want to make it an argument that this is why we should have to do night jumps to get a D License, then shouldn't those jumps count toward the requirement of night jumps. If not, then your argument just lost it's validity.

Others have talked about the fact that doing the night jump shows that you are able to face the risk of potentially jumping at night. If that is your argument, then why isn't there a requirement for other risks. I am much more at risk to have a cutaway (on EVERY JUMP) than to be faced with night jump conditions (of which I have control over when I get on the plane or not). Should I have to perform an intentional cutaway to show that I can handle that risk? Again, this and other examples of much riskier feats make that argument a moot point.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

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>There is no privilege granted by a "D" for which a night jump has
>the slightest relevance.

Let's look at your claim. If, as you claim, everything in the D must be oriented towards a specific requirement for permission/preparation to do something, it should be easy to identify what each requirement prepares you to do. So:

>D License Requirements
>a. met all current requirements for or hold a USPA C license

We'll get back to that one.

>b. completed 500 jumps including accumulating at least three hours of controlled freefall time

What privilege requires 500 jumps? What can a jumper with 500 jumps do that a jumper with 50 jumps and 50 hours of tunnel time can't do? This should be removed, since it means nothing in terms of training or preparation.

>c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds

Same thing. This should be removed!

To get the D you need to meet the C requirements (and indeed all of them back to the A.) So:

>completed 200 jumps, including accumulating at least 60 minutes of controlled freefall time

See above. This should be removed!

>c. landed within two meters of target center on 25 jumps

OK, you might need this for a PRO rating.

>d. aerial performance requirements, either:
>(1) during freefall, perform in sequence within 18 seconds—a backloop,
>front loop, left 360-degree turn, right 360-degree turn, right barrel roll
>and left barrel roll

This, of course, should be removed. No one will ever need to do a style series.

>(2) completed at least two points on an 8-way or larger random skydive

This should be removed as well, since many D-license holders with USPA instructional ratings and PRO ratings do not do any RW - so clearly it is not a necessary skill.

Now B license.

>b. completed 50 jumps including:
>(1) accumulated at least 30 minutes of controlled freefall time

This should be removed, of course.

>c. aerial performance requirements, either:
>(1) demonstrated the ability to perform individual
>maneuvers (left 360, right 360, backloop,
>left 360, right 360, backloop) in freefall in 18
>seconds or less

This as well. No need for a style series for any rating/license.

>(2) or successful completion of the planned formation . . .

As above. All RW is out.

>documentation of live water landing training . . .

And of course this is out. People can just avoid water landings, and there is no need for actual water landings in any rating/license.

I won't bother with the A license. To truly bring skydiving into the modern age, where no one is required to do anything they don't want to do (and may never need) the only requirement should be accuracy. If you're a natural under canopy, you should be able to get your A, B, C and D after, say, 20 jumps. That would work much better, and would never force anyone to take any risks they don't want to take.

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I think that you just wasted your time typing all that as it made no point whatsoever but only to make me not take anything that you had said previously seriously.

That reply was just purely a childish way to get around the point that Popsjumper is trying to make.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

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>as it made no point whatsoever

I'm sorry you missed it. To summarize: licenses are not just a means to an end, a way to get one prepared for the published requirements for a rating. They also indicate a general level of expertise and accomplishment in the sport. As such, I believe they should not be weakened by making them easier and easier to get by eliminating skills demonstrations.

This shouldn't really be a big deal. If a jumper objects to a given requirement, they can "opt out" and get a restricted license. That way everyone's happy.

>That reply was just purely a childish way to get around the point
>that Popsjumper is trying to make.

Wasn't replying to him.

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Should I have to perform an intentional cutaway to show that I can handle that risk? Again, this and other examples of much riskier feats make that argument a moot point.





To get a Tandem rating you have to either have performed an emergency cut away, or an intentional one...Yes, to SHOW you can handle the 'risk'.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[replyYes, I HAVE done night jumps. I thought the requirement was stupid then, I still think the requirement is stupid.


.



Professor, you have been beating that same old drum for years now....its going to wear out at some point.
I have a question for you.
You thought the requirement was "stupid then and its stupid now", why pray tell did you do the night jumps ?
Ego?
Peer pressure ?
Afraid of being called.......a pussy ? :)


Can't you tell the difference between doing something because you want to and doing something because it's required? It's the REQUIREMENT for a license that is pointless. Nothing wrong with night jumps per se.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Should I have to perform an intentional cutaway to show that I can handle that risk? Again, this and other examples of much riskier feats make that argument a moot point.





To get a Tandem rating you have to either have performed an emergency cut away, or an intentional one...Yes, to SHOW you can handle the 'risk'.



My understanding is that is not completely true for all Tandem manufactures ratings. A Vector rating does not require that. BUT I do see your point.

A D license a precursor to getting a tandem rating. It is NOT a requirement to have a performed an emergency cutaway to get a D. Are you suggesting that it be added as a requirement for a D license. There are plenty of D license holders out there who have thousands of jumps and not a single cutaway.

AND Not everyone out there trying to get a D License is going to go for a tandem rating.
Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

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If you want to make it an argument that this is why we should have to do night jumps to get a D License, then shouldn't those jumps count toward the requirement of night jumps. If not, then your argument just lost it's validity.



Sure as long as you exited 1 hour past sunset.

And that IS a scenario that is quite possible.

...taking off for a sunset load, but due to unseen circumstances not being able to exit while it's still 'light' out.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Not everyone out there trying to get a D License is going to go for a tandem rating.




Don't know about the Vector requirements, it IS a requirement for Strong.

And no...I didn't say it should be a requirement for a D license, I said it IS needed for a (Strong) Tandem rating, and as such must be performed...Just as a night jump is a requirement for a D...if you want the license, fill the requirement.

If you want a 'restricted' D, (whatever THAT is) then don't.

Don't have a cutaway and don't want to be a Strong Tandem master...don't worry about it.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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