know who is jumping with you

[madmott 0]

hi everyone.make sure you know who is jumping with you,i let someone follow my five way out to film on someone elses ok,he hit me at 100mph and it turned out he was not as qualified as i was told needless to say i cannot jump anymore so check their docs

[catfishhunter 1]

Sounds like an Incident Thread. What Happened?You said he was filming? Was he diving to the formation? Got over the formation and sucked in from the burble? Where did it happen? What are the jump numbers of all invloved? Injuries? What could have been done to avoid this?

So many questions and no answers...

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[davelepka 4]

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What could have been done to avoid this?

Did you read the title of the thread?

[madmott 0]

i was asked by an instructor if a guy i did not know could follow our five way to film it,even though it was an instructor i asked them about his capabilities to carry out the jump and was assured he was ok to do so.in the plane it was noticed he was not wearing a camera and was asked why not.we was told he was practicing as he had not got a camera yet,it was to late to query further he impacted me as i docked it turned out he did not have enough jumps to jump camera and had spent the last 50 or so jumps freeflying and was not current with flatflying

[madmott 0]

the only way i could have avoided this was not to trust anothers opinion and check the guys log book myself if i had done that i would not have let him jump with us as he had lost his log book three weeks before hand and his ability could not be proven

[madmott 0]

i had 300 jumps the lowest amount in the five way the guy who hit me had 190 approx but mostly freefly.my injuries where
ruptured spleen
shattered left shoulder-now replaced with artificial one
blood clot on the brain.
but im still smiling

[billvon 2,394]

>he hit me at 100mph . . .

I doubt that. We had a 100mph impact at Eloy about 15 years back. Tore off one jumper's leg and killed the other instantly. Most serious freefall collisions happen at 20-30mph. To get 100mph of closing speed you have to be at normal freefall speeds and hit someone under canopy (or something equally fast, like two wingsuits hitting each other head-on.)

[madmott 0]

i have it on video and it was estamated between 60-100mph as he was head down maybe it was 60 i dont know i am not here to score points just tell what i know,he hit my rig glancing of my left side but still ripped my spleen in three and shattered my left arm and shoulder.

[Reginald 0]

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the only way i could have avoided this was not to trust anothers opinion and check the guys log book myself

Did you talk to the new guy yourself before jumping with him or just the thrid party?

Sorry to hear about your injuries.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[madmott 0]

only to tell him not to try and join the group but just observe

[JumpRu 14]

At least he asked if he could jump with you… One guy who was visiting DZ joined our 2 way without asking permission. He told us later that we were not in danger because he has 1000 jumps and he knows what he is doing

[catfishhunter 1]

Yes Dave I did. I was throwing questions out there as a WHOLE i.e. answer each one and come to a conclusion other then "You won't die Skydiving if you never jump out of a plane"

Makes about as much sense as your reply doesn't it.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Zipp0 1]

What is the likely cause of an incident like this? I am doing my FJC this weekend, and to a newbie this looks like probable carelessness on the part of the 'camera jumper'. I could understand small errors caused by stability issues or similar, but going head down into a group of 5 seems just like utter disregard for safety. Did the person who collided into you offer an explanation?

I'm sorry this happened to you.

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[davelepka 4]

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Makes about as much sense as your reply doesn't it

My reply makes perfect sense. The jumped with a guy he didn't know, and the guy ran into him. If he knew more about the guy, he wouldn't have let him jump with him.

To sum it up, how do you prevent this? "know who is jumping with you" (thats the title to the thread, as well as the answer to your question.

I can kinda see where you're going, but this is pretty simple. The guy ran into him due to lack of skill/experience.

[madmott 0]

no he said he cant remember anything as he was knocked out on impact(cypres saved him)

[labrys 0]

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going head down into a group of 5 seems just like utter disregard for safety

Exactly

Owned by Remi #?

[MB38 0]

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i have it on video

Skydiving Movies

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[DJL 232]

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190 approx

I can't say that you can really make the call on jump numbers alone for this guy. At 200 jumps someone should know what they're doing. This just seems like a complete lapse in judgement. I only know of a few people who I consider to be dangerous, and that has more to do with their attitude than jump numbers. I pretty much assume that anyone over 100 jumps knows enough not to kill me.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mdrejhon 8]

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i have it on video and it was estamated between 60-100mph as he was head down maybe it was 60 i dont know i am not here to score points just tell what i know,he hit my rig glancing of my left side but still ripped my spleen in three and shattered my left arm and shoulder.

Very interesting, but I've always found it hard to estimate the speed of objects. It's easy to overestimate the speed when there's not much familiar references (backgrounds, etc)

I should mention there is actually a scientific method of calculation to find out the speed, that's reasonably accurate. Video is taken at 60 fields per second (30 full frames per second). 60mph is equal to 5000 feet per minute, or about 83.3 feet per second.

Most cameras have a freeze frame feature and most of them have a frame advance of 1/30th of a second. A human body in boxman position is about 4.5 feet long. Find out how many body lengths the renegade body moves (in relation to another body) between 10 frame advances (1/3rd of a second). If the body moves about 2 body lengths (in relation to the other body as a reference point) in that time interval, that's a movement of 9 feet in 1/3rd second or 27 feet in 1 second.

Since 83.3 ft per sec is 60 mph, doing this math (27 feet per sec divided by 83.3 ft per sec, times 60 mph), yields 19.4 miles per hour.

So, from this math, a flat body moving horizontally about 2 body lengths in 10 frame advances (1/3rd of a second) is moving at approximately 20 miles per hour horizontally relative speed between the two bodies. This is assuming 1/30th sec frame advance -- you can doublecheck by counting the number of frame advances needed to go through one second of videotape.

This way, you can pinpoint the exact speed, down to an accuracy of approximately 20 percent (or better). Parallax issues can make things difficult, but can be compensated. Shaky video camera issues can be a problem, but since you're calculating relative velocities between two bodies, you just need to measure the change in body locations between two bodies even if the camera is shaking, between two different points in the videotape (preferably something statistically significant, such as at least 1 or 2 body lengths), I have chosen 1/3rd of a second as an arbitrary value which is appropriate for measuring a high speed collision of this type. The formula can be adapted accordingly.

This is assuming the video is a third party filming the two colliding objects. There is another, more complicated, method of mathematically estimating speed of an incoming object -- which you would need to use if one of the two colliding objects is holding the video camera. It is done by measuring the number of frames it takes for an object to 'double in size' in the video frame, or if incoming too fast, then using a derived formula using the number of frames it takes for an object to grow a specific amount, such as 'quadruple in size'. From this, a formula can be applied. (Let me know if you need me to dig up this mathematical formula for measuring the speed of incoming objects heading directly towards the video camera).

[pkasdorf 0]

What's the title of the video in Skydiving Movies?

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[Reginald 0]

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I pretty much assume that anyone over 100 jumps knows enough not to kill me.

Wow, I sure don't!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[madmott 0]

using your calcs i make it 55mph cheers

[davelepka 4]

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I pretty much assume that anyone over 100 jumps knows enough not to kill me.

Thats dumb. With the ISP, the first 25 are all supervised, and the jumpers learn very little about playing with others. The remaining 75 could easily be a mix of solos, freefly attempts, and two ways with another guy with 62 jumps.

The smart move is to dirt dive EVERYTHING with EVERY person on the jump. If there is an outside video, include them in the dirt dive. Especially if any jumper on the load is trying something new, the dirt dive is essential to ensure that all involved know whay they need to know. Assume nothing.

If you really want to do it right, if someone is trying something new, locate the local expert in that area, and have them review your plan, and make additions or subtractions as needed.

Ever watch a behind the scenes feature involving a stunt for a movie? See how much time they put into planning, and prepping? Thats so nobody gets hurt. Technically every skydive is a 'stunt'. They warrant the same careful planning and prepping.

Failing to recognize this is leaving the door wide open for any number of unforeseen circumstances to come walking in.

[kallend 1,623]

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190 approx

I pretty much assume that anyone over 100 jumps knows enough not to kill me.

Very bad assumption. Picture attached.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DJL 232]

Reply to kallend, davelepka, Reginald.

You're right and I should temper/recant/back-down for not being specific. While someone over 100 jumps may not be talented enough to avoid killing me in some situations they SHOULD know enough to not go head down after a RW four-way. Furthermore, figuring out someone's talent, mental state, and how current they are is not substute for jump numbers.

Edit: Should say: Jump numbers is no substitute for talent, mental state, and currency.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher