Military jumps and civilian jumps

[Blairzo13 0]

What's up everybody. I recently started my AFF course and I'm getting ready to jump #3. I was in the U.S. ARMY Airborne and was able to log a few static line jumps. That leads me to my question. Am I able to apply those SL jumps to account for the solo jumps needed to aquire my A license? Basically do the jumps transfer over!

[Benjamin11 0]

I'm airborne+HALO qualed, just for background.

I'm pretty confident the static-line round jumps you conducted at Benning do not count towards your AFF.

And even if they did, I don't think it would be a good idea to do it, even if it saves some money.

Talk to your instructor about it.

-Ben

[DougH 270]

A jump is a jump, if you can document it then it should could towards your 25.

Otherwise static line students from the old day would have had to start counting to 25 after they were cleared for delays.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DSE 3]

They count as jumps, and do indeed count as jumps towards a license. However, your home DZ may not take them in to account for purposes of their training requirements. But they do indeed count as jumps, as they are aircraft exits, landing under a parachute.

[Andy9o8 0]

The following Provisions from the SIM would seem to apply:

Quote

C. Logging jumps for licenses and ratings

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:

a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

b. legibly recorded in chronological order in an appropriate log that contains the following information:

(1) jump number

(2) date

(3) location

(4) exit altitude

(5) freefall length (time)

(6) type of jump (formation skydiving, freeflying, canopy formation, style, etc.)

(7) landing distance from the target

(8) equipment used

(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

.....



E. License privileges and requirements

A License

1. Persons holding a USPA A license may jump without supervision, pack their own main parachute, engage in basic group jumps, perform water jumps, and must have-

a. completed 25 jumps

b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card

c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants

d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP)

[diablopilot 2]

As my student I would not allow them to be counted towards the license, but would encourage you to keep them in your log total.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[devin2477 0]

So what would you tell a Static line student?! Oh nevermind the USPA, you need 32 jumps to get your license. lol. Thats non-sense. A jump is a jump and counts towards your license.

[Benjamin11 0]

A jump is indeed a jump. However, the body position used for static line round paratroop door exits is nothing like any exit used in AFF.

In addition, the canopy control on a T10 is nothing like that of a square.

In addition, the EPs taught for T10/T10Rs are almost completely different.

I'm not contesting the fact you made a handful of jumps, I'm saying they should not be used to indicate readiness to graduate from the AFF program.

-Ben

[bjbkkb 1]

I say log them. That way every time you review your log book you will remember why you don't ever want to jump a round again

My goal is that when all is said done I will have a big pile of well used gear and a collection of great stories.

[Blairzo13 0]

bjbkkb

I say log them. That way every time you review your log book you will remember why you don't ever want to jump a round again

Amen to that!

Benjamin11

I'm airborne+HALO qualed, just for background.

I'm pretty confident the static-line round jumps you conducted at Benning do not count towards your AFF.

And even if they did, I don't think it would be a good idea to do it, even if it saves some money.

Talk to your instructor about it.

-Ben

My intention was never to take away from my AFF course, I'm going to complete that. I would not want to miss out on valuable training and skills I'm learning as I progress threw my AFF course, it very well could save my life some day. My instructors are amazing, prior to each jump I feel like I've received the best instructions I could get and they make me feel very relaxed, that is a big plus for me. I was only asking about jump count (in regards to) after I complete my AFF course. I know from my experience in the military, REDUDENCY is key. Same applies here! Thank you everybody for the useful information and I will look into it further.
Blue Skies!!!

[Andy9o8 0]

I agree that a jump is a jump from the standpoint of raw quantity of the experience of making a parachute jump from an aircraft in flight, as well as the respect from others that that quantity of jumps may earn the jumper. But from a standpoint of earning sport parachute licenses (whether from USPA, BPA or wherever) - not just AFF graduation, but the actual license - that refers to the skill set derived from using modern freefall gear using freefall parachuting techniques, even if that means a few S/L jumps using the arch-freefall technique with freefall-style gear. So I think that, in any country, airborne-style static-line jumps, especially using round canopies, should not count toward sport parachuting licenses. (I would think, however, that military freefall jumps would be more likely to qualify toward sport parachuting licenses.)

Also note, FWIW, that the USPA's SIM provisions I quoted above refer to "skydives... made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump." I didn't search further to discern how that is (or ought to be) defined, but I think it's reasonable to question whether airborne-style S/L jumps, especially with round canopies, would be covered by that language.

[accumack 13]

Unless something has changed the military jumps a done below the minimum jump altitude required by USPA so they shouldn't count toward any license but they do count as jumps.

[DiverMike 5]

The IAD program clearly allows for static line jumps to count towards licensing and the only thing I found in the SIM about student canopies is:

4.E.5. Canopies used for students should be large, docile,
and appropriate for the student’s weight.

There is nothing in the SIM that indicates static line round canopy jumps should not count towards licenses.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[DiverMike 5]

Dang - your reply and mine crossed in the interwebs. It made me rethink my position. You are probably correct. In addition to the deployment altitude being too low, a military jump would probably be disqualified via:

Quote

All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license.

So unless the jumpmaster is a USPA instructor, the jump wouldn't count

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[BIGUN 1,050]

This was discussed and changed by the USPA some years ago.

Quote

Military jumps conducted on military orders. Should they count for USPA awards and licenses?
A question was posed to S&T as to whether military jumps conducted on military orders should they count for USPA awards and licenses? At issue is the use of round parachutes and exit and opening altitudes at and below 1200 feet AGL. The BSR’s state that jumps made under military orders do not need to be made in accordance to the BSR’s. Therefore the Committee believes that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.

Source: http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/Downloads/Min_BOD_2005_01.pdf - Page 27. Para 2

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Therefore the Committee believes that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.

Thanks for finding that. From a policy standpoint, that seems fair enough, since it obviously implies that the basic A license should still require that jumps counted toward that license be conducted under sport freefall-training conditions.

[BIGUN 1,050]

Andy9o8

Quote

Therefore the Committee believes that it is clear in our BSRs that those jumps are being conducted in accordance with the BSRs and should apply towards the total jumps needed for B, C and D licenses as well as awards.

Thanks for finding that. From a policy standpoint, that seems fair enough, since it obviously implies that the basic A license should still require that jumps counted toward that license be conducted under sport freefall-training conditions.

You're welcome.
You'll notice that it does not apply to ratings.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[riggerrob 558]

Andy9o8

Quote

... jumps counted toward that license be conducted under sport freefall-training conditions.

..................................................................................

Agreed Andy.

However, most skydivers - make sarcastic comments about military static-line jumps - have few clues and even fewer muscles. The average skydiver does not have the first clue as to how hard it is to jump with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes.

..... as for the next skydiver who puts down military jump experience ... I issue the challenge: you and me with rucksacks and once around the airfield.

• Quote

[hookitt 0]

You show me the skills, they'll count. I base my decisions on signing off the card by your performance. It doesn't have to be stellar, it just needs to be safe.

One thing you already know better than any of us is a PLF. You can crash safer than just about anyone. I like teaching people with a military back ground. I can train in a very direct manner and you'll pay attention. If you're given a task, you'll do it. It makes my job so much easier and you learn quickly.

So yes, they count, but 25 jumps is a minimum, not a standard.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sammielu 3]

Jumps count for USPA A licenses if they are conducted under supervision of a USPA instructor and signed off in your logbook by a USPA instructor.

Interesting to note that all skydives count for B/C/D licenses, just log them! Another good reason the licenses have requirements in addition to jump #s...

[joshuajumps 0]

They count as jumps as in your total number of jumps in general. I think as long as you complete the requirements of the "A License" You should be able to count the jumps if you needed extra towards the total number of jumps for your license, just for numbers sake.

When I went to HALO we did two night jumps, and I plan on using them for my D License. Just because it's military doesn't mean it doesn't count. You just need to fulfill the requirements of the license, per se.

Have fun at skydive paraclete. I'm assuming that is where you are at. You got an awesome drop zone for just getting into the sport.

[Blairzo13 0]

Thank you everyone for the useful information, nice to know there are lots of helpful informative jumpers out there.

I really miss the intense level of training I did in the military (standing around not so much), skydiving takes me back to that feeling. Knowing that there is a force greater then yourself and flirting with that force is humbling. When I got out I was looking to get into a race car but my budget had other intentions. To quote Ricky Bobby "I just wanna go fast" que skydiving. IM IN LOVE WITH FREEFALL!!! I can go just as fast but without the car, I'm sold!!!

I'm taking my AFF course at SkydivePerris here in CA, they have a wind tunnel on site. It's about 2 hours from where I live, between work and the drive I'm not progressing as quickly as I'd like. I'm planning on hitting up the iFly at city walk, it's a lot closer then SkydivePerris.

[NWFlyer 2]

Blairzo13

I'm planning on hitting up the iFly at city walk, it's a lot closer then SkydivePerris.

Let them know you're a student skydiver; they may be able to connect you with a coach who has experience working with skydivers.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke