AAD use - let's hear it!

[PiLFy 0]

Chuck,

Respectfully, your method of using multiple quotes is misquoting people. You've attributed your words to me, this time.

[topdocker 0]

JeffCa

***
Every argument these guys use for having the 'responsibility' to buy an AAD can also be used for NOT SKYDIVING AT ALL. What's on my back is none of your business.

People are still under some strange delusion that their actions, in this case possible death at a DZ, will affect nobody but themself. I just cannot bring myself to think in that manner, and I have a hard time understanding how anybody can. Would any of you "don't regulate me" people care to go on the threads of the latest no-AAD fatality's friends who are grieving with his death and tell them that it's none of their business that he died? That it was his decision and they're nanny-staters who should just get over it? They seem to be suffering right now, it has clearly affected them.

And again, another person who makes no distinction between giving up skydiving completely, and doing exactly the same skydive with a small safety device hidden in their rig. Completely baffling that it makes sense to some people. We're going to skydive, so let's see what practical and simple measures we can take to improve our safety. Driving? Wear a seatbelt and drive. Riding a motorcycle? Wear a helmet and ride. Climbing? Use ropes and climb. Skydiving? Use an AAD and jump. How do you get from there to giving it up completely?

I'm gonna weigh in here on this one a bit.

If you are really looking at the cost/benefit ratio of safety in our sport, better canopy flight education is the best deal. An AAD might be used in a very small set of circumstances over a period of skydiving for one person, but better canopy skills will be benefit everyone on every jump.

Before you make AAD's mandatory, make canopy piloting courses mandatory at each license level.

top

Jump more, post less!

[billindenver 0]

JeffCa

***You notice how much you sound like a non jumper speaking about skydiving in general? - to them its pure stupidity to jump from an airplane no matter what.

You will never understand people who just want to live by their own rules.

Roy

Sounds more like you don't care if you live, by your own rules. You're OK with dying for lack of a small safety device, and screw anybody who is left to face the consequences. It's not that you want your own rules, it's that you're making what I consider to be a really incomprehensible decision that shows a lack of respect for your own life and the consequences that your death could bring, all so you can feel good about not having a hidden safety device. My own rules include using that little device, it's an intelligent decision. Making my own rules does not include stupid choices.

Can we please stop with the suggestion that we should all quit skydiving? I cannot understand how you think giving up the activity completely is the same as installing an AAD. Driving without a seatbelt is real driving. Well, if we have to wear a seatbelt, we'd all be safer not driving anyway! Let's quit driving. I get the feeling that it's all-or-nothing for you, and that "compromise" or "finding a happy medium" are not really options in your world. Seriously, you make using an AAD sound like getting castrated. I wonder how you feel about other safety rules that you think affect only yourself, but actually affect others, too.

Edit: I asked my girlfriend, who took AFF but is not an active jumper, about this. We've been all over the world together, skydiving, scuba diving, abseiling, riding in some guy's homemade submarine 600m below the ocean, bungee jumping, etc. She is the adventurous type. My question was what she would think if I decided to jump without an AAD because it thrills me more. She said, "I'd think you're [expletive deleted] stupid, and that you don't care about our life together." Yet she's fine with me skydiving in general.

Edit again: She added later, "What am I supposed to tell people at your funeral? That you chose (to be) stupid? Chose (to be) stupid over me?"

Well that settles it then doesn't it? You and your girlfriend have decided that for my own good, you're going to set the rules. Ok. I'll bite. Now lets see if you can follow my logic here. My wife and I have decided that in order to make skydiving safer...everyone should jump student rigs. No question those canopies are safer. No question our new rule will save far more lives than your required AAD. You can't argue otherwise. So, do you know why our rule will never work in the States? Because this country still has a tiny bit of freedom left. We get to decide on a few things...even if they are bad for us. Like jumping out of airplanes instead of bowling. Small canopies because they are more fun (and dangerous). We get to smoke if we want to (not me...no thanks). We can drink if we want to (single malt please) and the consequences for my decisions....ARE ON ME. It's a personal freedom, personal responsibility thing....that means you have no say in it.

I realize you're in Japan and perhaps it's a cultural difference that you just can't fathom...but over here, telling someone you're forcing them to do something for their own good just doesn't go over very well.

My point being, if you're still with me, is that no matter how certain YOU or your girlfriend are about what is best for me...no matter how unquestionable YOUR logic....you don't get to decide for me. It's frankly none of your damn business whether or not my wife or daughter cry at my funeral. They would cry because I went skydiving that day, not because I choose not to have an AAD with 30 year old technology in it. What you're being intentionally obtuse about is the point that your argument for AAD's is the same argument people use when trying to stop skydiving or private planes, or high power motorcycles, or race tracks, skateboards, BASE jumping or any of the thousand things people like you get all wound up over because others are risking what you dare not. Your emotional need to get involved in other people's decision making along with the tenacity with which you pursue this crusade to change their minds....can be cured with enough counseling. I very much doubt you would stand on a dropzone and argue this out with a stranger face to face, so why are you being so pushy in here? How about you just relax a bit and get on with your own life.

[michalm21 0]

I'm sorry but your freedom rambling is coming across like a selfish rambling. You may think your actions only affect you, but that wouldn't be true even if you had no family and decided jump off a remote cliff into the ocean. I take it back, it would be true if you were eaten by a whale or a shark and your body never found ever again.
I don't care that you do not have an ADD, please go ahead and enjoy your 'freedom'. Just don't be so selfish to oversee how a possible death can affect other people in or outside of your precious life.
I'm not even asking you to be a saint and think of others when you live your life. Just acknowledge that it's a possibility. Free should not equal selfish. Well, unless you're a murcan, then I guess it makes sense.

[gowlerk 1,902]

michalm21

I'm sorry but your freedom rambling is coming across like a selfish rambling. You may think your actions only affect you, but that wouldn't be true even if you had no family and decided jump off a remote cliff into the ocean. I take it back, it would be true if you were eaten by a whale or a shark and your body never found ever again.
I don't care that you do not have an ADD, please go ahead and enjoy your 'freedom'. Just don't be so selfish to oversee how a possible death can affect other people in or outside of your precious life.
I'm not even asking you to be a saint and think of others when you live your life. Just acknowledge that it's a possibility. Free should not equal selfish. Well, unless you're a murcan, then I guess it makes sense.

Yet you put YOUR family at risk by skydiving? The hypocrisy that this response represents is breathtaking.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[skypuppy 1]

chuckakers

****** ...The They in those cases being assholes who think they've the right to impose their views on others.

Not choosing sides on the debate, but to be fair there have been people with arguments pro and con that have been trying to impose their views on others.

first off -- not really sure now who I'm replying to - seems the quotes are all mixed up now. but...

I've never seen a post where someone against mandatory aad's has said someone else should not wear one. It's always been that they don't think someone else should be telling them they HAVE to wear one.

Or am I wrong on that.

So who is saying you can wear one if you want but I won't imposing their view on someone else...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

JeffCa

***You notice how much you sound like a non jumper speaking about skydiving in general? - to them its pure stupidity to jump from an airplane no matter what.

You will never understand people who just want to live by their own rules.

Roy

Sounds more like you don't care if you live, by your own rules. You're OK with dying for lack of a small safety device, and screw anybody who is left to face the consequences. It's not that you want your own rules, it's that you're making what I consider to be a really incomprehensible decision that shows a lack of respect for your own life and the consequences that your death could bring, all so you can feel good about not having a hidden safety device. My own rules include using that little device, it's an intelligent decision. Making my own rules does not include stupid choices.

Can we please stop with the suggestion that we should all quit skydiving? I cannot understand how you think giving up the activity completely is the same as installing an AAD. Driving without a seatbelt is real driving. Well, if we have to wear a seatbelt, we'd all be safer not driving anyway! Let's quit driving. I get the feeling that it's all-or-nothing for you, and that "compromise" or "finding a happy medium" are not really options in your world. Seriously, you make using an AAD sound like getting castrated. I wonder how you feel about other safety rules that you think affect only yourself, but actually affect others, too.

Edit: I asked my girlfriend, who took AFF but is not an active jumper, about this. We've been all over the world together, skydiving, scuba diving, abseiling, riding in some guy's homemade submarine 600m below the ocean, bungee jumping, etc. She is the adventurous type. My question was what she would think if I decided to jump without an AAD because it thrills me more. She said, "I'd think you're [expletive deleted] stupid, and that you don't care about our life together." Yet she's fine with me skydiving in general.

Edit again: She added later, "What am I supposed to tell people at your funeral? That you chose (to be) stupid? Chose (to be) stupid over me?"

So it makes sense to you so everyone has to do it. Maybe you should just round up everyone who disagrees with you and give them frontal lobotomies so you can reprogram them to your frame of mind.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[mcordell 2]

JeffCa

***You notice how much you sound like a non jumper speaking about skydiving in general? - to them its pure stupidity to jump from an airplane no matter what.

You will never understand people who just want to live by their own rules.

Roy

Sounds more like you don't care if you live, by your own rules. You're OK with dying for lack of a small safety device, and screw anybody who is left to face the consequences. It's not that you want your own rules, it's that you're making what I consider to be a really incomprehensible decision that shows a lack of respect for your own life and the consequences that your death could bring, all so you can feel good about not having a hidden safety device. My own rules include using that little device, it's an intelligent decision. Making my own rules does not include stupid choices.

Can we please stop with the suggestion that we should all quit skydiving? I cannot understand how you think giving up the activity completely is the same as installing an AAD. Driving without a seatbelt is real driving. Well, if we have to wear a seatbelt, we'd all be safer not driving anyway! Let's quit driving. I get the feeling that it's all-or-nothing for you, and that "compromise" or "finding a happy medium" are not really options in your world. Seriously, you make using an AAD sound like getting castrated. I wonder how you feel about other safety rules that you think affect only yourself, but actually affect others, too.

Edit: I asked my girlfriend, who took AFF but is not an active jumper, about this. We've been all over the world together, skydiving, scuba diving, abseiling, riding in some guy's homemade submarine 600m below the ocean, bungee jumping, etc. She is the adventurous type. My question was what she would think if I decided to jump without an AAD because it thrills me more. She said, "I'd think you're [expletive deleted] stupid, and that you don't care about our life together." Yet she's fine with me skydiving in general.

Edit again: She added later, "What am I supposed to tell people at your funeral? That you chose (to be) stupid? Chose (to be) stupid over me?"

If those consequences don't affect you, why do you care? You made your decision to use an AAD, apparently so your girlfriend will be able to adequately address the crowd at your funeral and tell them at least you had an AAD, which is fine. That's your choice. Why do you care if someone else's loved ones are mad at them or sad because of the choices they made? Isn't that between them and their loved ones? My wife isn't a jumper but she knows enough to know what an AAD is. We talked about me buying a few AADs to put in my rigs but decided it was too expensive right now. We both understand what they do, but it's just not in our budget right now. It may never be. That's a decision we came to together. Why do you feel like you have the right to tell me and my wife how we are going to spend our money? I'm fine with you jumping with an AAD. I'm even fine with you and your girlfriend thinking I'm stupid. I'm not ok with someone telling me I have to have an AAD. The percentage of jumpers who die due to a no-pull scenario or who were saved by an AAD is very low in comparison with other risks in our sport. As has been mentioned, we have a culture right now where people are in such a hurry to downsize or move to a fully elliptical canopy and swoop before they are ready that people are dying under fully inflated an functional mains. That injures and kills more jumpers than an AAD would save. Why do you draw the line at wanting to require an AAD to save the smaller percentage but not having a mandatory wingloading progression or prohibiting low altitude high performance maneuvers when that is the biggest risk in our sport?

ETA: To me that's like saying we should make airbags mandatory. They have to be installed, even if your car didn't come with them. You also have to wear your seatbelt because driving is dangerous and not having your seatbelt and airbags is a selfish risk. BUT, it's ok if you drag-race on the streets and drift around corners as long as you have the safety gear because those high risk activities are fun.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 369]

skypuppy

********* ...The They in those cases being assholes who think they've the right to impose their views on others.

Not choosing sides on the debate, but to be fair there have been people with arguments pro and con that have been trying to impose their views on others.

first off -- not really sure now who I'm replying to - seems the quotes are all mixed up now. but...

I've never seen a post where someone against mandatory aad's has said someone else should not wear one. It's always been that they don't think someone else should be telling them they HAVE to wear one.

Or am I wrong on that.

So who is saying you can wear one if you want but I won't imposing their view on someone else...

I didn't say they were trying to get people not to wear them. I guess I should have been more clear. What I'm talking about are some in the anti AAD crowd being demeaning to the pro AAD folks, some implying that they aren't "real" skydivers if they use an AAD and others referring to them as assholes if they believe in mandatory use.

I'm a do-you-own-thing guy, but I believe in respecting everyone's opinion and it seems some who don't want mandatory use don't have that same respect. It's one thing to disagree. It's quite another to be a jerk about it.

I started this thread so we could discuss the merits of using or not using AAD's. I don't think we need the insults.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

"What I'm talking about are some in the anti AAD crowd being demeaning to the pro AAD folks, some implying that they aren't "real" skydivers if they use an AAD and others referring to them as assholes if they believe in mandatory use."

Hey Chuck,

I just looked back through this thread. Here's the first attack including the word "Asshole":

Quote

Iyosha #57: "You cannot believe you're not being an asshole if there are people you care about in this world and you don't do everything you can to be safe."

Scanning through the posts reveals insulting & nonsensical arguments, confrontational/holier-than-thou accusations, heavy ethnocentric & personal biases, & an overall adversarial approach by a vocal minority within the Pro-AAD camp. Most of the worst comments were so far out there that no one bothered replying to them, directly.

I respectfully suggest that you reread the thread. You will find a pattern of antagonism, but it's from the other side. Berating people as if they were children, using disingenuous arguments, insulting people's morality & ethics, profane name-calling... All of those actions will get your butt kicked if done in-person. I think a couple of people here hiding behind their keyboards know that.

Respect is a two-way street. A number of other pro-AAD posters have respectfully stated their opinions. Grimmie's posts come to mind, here. I've no problem w/that, & would be happy to sit back at the end of the jump day discussing it w/him. However, I won't be repeatedly attacked & insulted by others without responding.

Sadly, the devolution of almost any meaningful debate is part & parcel of the Dizzy.com forums. It's why I rarely post. I'm not sure a lengthy, civil debate is possible, here. It was a good idea for a topic, Chuck. I thank you for making the effort.

[craigbey 0]

Quote

If you are really looking at the cost/benefit ratio of safety in our sport, better canopy flight education is the best deal. An AAD might be used in a very small set of circumstances over a period of skydiving for one person, but better canopy skills will be benefit everyone on every jump.

Before you make AAD's mandatory, make canopy piloting courses mandatory at each license level.

+1

[lyosha 46]

craigbey

Quote

If you are really looking at the cost/benefit ratio of safety in our sport, better canopy flight education is the best deal. An AAD might be used in a very small set of circumstances over a period of skydiving for one person, but better canopy skills will be benefit everyone on every jump.

Before you make AAD's mandatory, make canopy piloting courses mandatory at each license level.

+1

they already are, no?

[flydog 0]

Top I agree there are things that would saave more people than AADs that should be mandatory. I also feel when AADs are mandatory, they should come with mandatory groundings, and refresher FJCs, because obviously the people having AAD fires need it. Anyone who has an AAD fire has failed to remain in control and save their own life. I could give less of a shit if someone knocks you out. Learn to choose better dives to be on.

If you think I am being harsh, I have asked one poster on here his opinion. His opinion matters because he has had an AAD fire. He feels that grounding in many cases is prudent. He almost grounded himself, but went back and jumped after some seroius self reflection.

I have friends and aquaintances who have had AAD fires. I am upfront about calling them a dumbass. Most dont disagree because they let themselves slip up and fail to save their own life.

Lets make AADs mandatory, but you set your ass down for a month if you have an AAD fire. Imagine the whining we would get about the second half of that sentence.

Just my $.02

[chuckakers 369]

SStewart

******...when it is in my rig it isn't on much, depends on what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with.

That's what Tom Piras said.

Bullshit, Tom Piras never said that. You do your arguement no good by making shit up.

Sarcasm, my friend.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 369]

PiLFy

Quote

"What I'm talking about are some in the anti AAD crowd being demeaning to the pro AAD folks, some implying that they aren't "real" skydivers if they use an AAD and others referring to them as assholes if they believe in mandatory use."

Hey Chuck,

I just looked back through this thread. Here's the first attack including the word "Asshole":

***Iyosha #57: "You cannot believe you're not being an asshole if there are people you care about in this world and you don't do everything you can to be safe."

Scanning through the posts reveals insulting & nonsensical arguments, confrontational/holier-than-thou accusations, heavy ethnocentric & personal biases, & an overall adversarial approach by a vocal minority within the Pro-AAD camp. Most of the worst comments were so far out there that no one bothered replying to them, directly.

I respectfully suggest that you reread the thread. You will find a pattern of antagonism, but it's from the other side. Berating people as if they were children, using disingenuous arguments, insulting people's morality & ethics, profane name-calling... All of those actions will get your butt kicked if done in-person. I think a couple of people here hiding behind their keyboards know that.

Respect is a two-way street. A number of other pro-AAD posters have respectfully stated their opinions. Grimmie's posts come to mind, here. I've no problem w/that, & would be happy to sit back at the end of the jump day discussing it w/him. However, I won't be repeatedly attacked & insulted by others without responding.

Sadly, the devolution of almost any meaningful debate is part & parcel of the Dizzy.com forums. It's why I rarely post. I'm not sure a lengthy, civil debate is possible, here. It was a good idea for a topic, Chuck. I thank you for making the effort.

We can split hairs over how many berating, rude, ugly, disparaging, insulting, and demeaning remarks have been made by people on both sides, how many people actually made them, how many times the same person repeated them, and on and on, but it just demonstrates that it's coming from both sides and it's ridiculous.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

So do you use an AAD? Why?

Yes. While I know there is a possibility of "bouncing" the idea does not sit well with me so I'm going to minimize the possibility as much as possible.

Quote

Do you believe they should be mandatory? Why or why not?

No. I would not like to see AAD use made mandatory by legislation or USPA requirement/directive. I think the DZO is capable of establishing the local safety measures. At the individual level, skydivers should be given that choice, after all they are taking the individual risk.

I also jump with an RSL but again, that is a personal choice.

[chuckakers 369]

Boomerdog

Quote

So do you use an AAD? Why?

Yes. While I know there is a possibility of "bouncing" the idea does not sit well with me so I'm going to minimize the possibility as much as possible.

***Do you believe they should be mandatory? Why or why not?

No. I would not like to see AAD use made mandatory by legislation or USPA requirement/directive. I think the DZO is capable of establishing the local safety measures. At the individual level, skydivers should be given that choice, after all they are taking the individual risk.

I also jump with an RSL but again, that is a personal choice.

I love you local policy stance.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gowlerk 1,902]

There is also the fact that the next mass recall of some famous brand AAD could be just around the corner for all we know. If it happens, mandatory mass groundings are a possibility. It already is a possibility in the tandem world.

Add to that the fact that there is currently no US maker of these devices. Do my patriotic American friends really want to totally rely on German, Czeck, and Belgium companies?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[stayhigh 2]

What is this recall you speak of?

Are you just pulling sht out of your ass or is there legitimate bases on it?

Cypress has proven to work within the parameter, and has been prove to save lives for almost 20+ years without a hitch.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[gowlerk 1,902]

stayhigh

What is this recall you speak of?

Are you just pulling sht out of your ass or is there legitimate bases on it?

Cypress has proven to work within the parameter, and has been prove to save lives for almost 20+ years without a hitch.

I meant just exactly what I said.

"could be just around the corner for all we know. "

Nothing more, nothing less.

Airtec has had component issues before and they could have them again. Nothing is for sure.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[chuckakers 369]

gowlerk

There is also the fact that the next mass recall of some famous brand AAD could be just around the corner for all we know. If it happens, mandatory mass groundings are a possibility. It already is a possibility in the tandem world.

Add to that the fact that there is currently no US maker of these devices. Do my patriotic American friends really want to totally rely on German, Czeck, and Belgium companies?

Straw man arguments at best.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gowlerk 1,902]

chuckakers

***There is also the fact that the next mass recall of some famous brand AAD could be just around the corner for all we know. If it happens, mandatory mass groundings are a possibility. It already is a possibility in the tandem world.

Add to that the fact that there is currently no US maker of these devices. Do my patriotic American friends really want to totally rely on German, Czeck, and Belgium companies?

Straw man arguments at best.

I agree that these points have nothing to do with the efficacy or safety of AAD use. But they are genuine factors to be considered in the context of making AADs mandatory at USPA dzs as some are calling for.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[PiLFy 0]

[Quote]"...but it just demonstrates that it's coming from both sides and it's ridiculous."[/Quote]

No, you'd admonished the anti-AAD camp as being the sole guilty party. That was far from true. There's no splitting hairs about it. The text is all right there. 90% of the BS came from a few pro-AADs. They got answered.

One pro-AAD person was talking progressively more smack for a while w/no moderation taking place. That it was allowed to devolve to that point is ridiculous. Though, it was probably inevitable here at the circus.

[grimmie 173]

gowlerk

There is also the fact that the next mass recall of some famous brand AAD could be just around the corner for all we know. If it happens, mandatory mass groundings are a possibility. It already is a possibility in the tandem world.

Add to that the fact that there is currently no US maker of these devices. Do my patriotic American friends really want to totally rely on German, Czeck, and Belgium companies?

I like BMWs, Czech supermodels and cold Stella.

[grimmie 173]

Respect is a two-way street. A number of other pro-AAD posters have respectfully stated their opinions. Grimmie's posts come to mind, here. I've no problem w/that, & would be happy to sit back at the end of the jump day discussing it w/him. However, I won't be repeatedly attacked & insulted by others without responding.


^^^any time, over a cold beer, I'll buy^^^