Joellercoaster 6 #26 August 6, 2015 ghost47The answer I have uniformly gotten is that, in the UK, you need to pay for the slots of the three other experienced jumpers to do that 4-way, and that even with that, it's hard to get three such jumpers to jump with you, and they won't teach you anything. So it's easier for these beginners to fly to California, and do it here. This seemed incredible to me, but I was assured that's the way it was. Not on my planet. FS1 is a multi-jump program of instruction, and you need an instructor (coach) to do it. But if your dropzone has a shortage of people willing and capable of joining in on the graduation jump, then that's a bit lame. Other dropzones are plentiful. (Also, the response to something costing a lot of money to do is to fly to America? Don't get me wrong I think going on a trip to Perris or Elsinore with UK instructors is a fine idea and you'll learn a lot, but you sure don't do it because of cost.)-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #27 August 6, 2015 Quotethis is becoming way off topic Is it? Strictly from the outside looking in, it does seem to be relevant to whether a newer jumper in the UK realistically can feel free to voice safety concerns to the guys in charge, or whether he'd better just STFU if he knows what's good for him, for fear of being punished at his DZ and perhaps even banned from jumping in the UK. I'm not saying that either is or is not the case, but this isn't the first time this has been discussed in the international skydiving community, and it's certainly on-topic with the OP. I'd like to hear all the voices address the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivecat 3 #28 August 6, 2015 Back to the OP and question at hand... Asking the safety officer or instructor at hand with a "I'm confused" or "could you please explain X so I understand" is the best way to handle these situations. I do it still when I see something that I don't agree with, and sometimes even know is flat out wrong. Approaching it with humbleness on your own part, even if you know you are 100% right, can go a long way toward fostering a conversation and avoiding negative reactions. Definitely don't ignore, but change the approach on the confront/report, it still gets you the answers you want, and you may learn something too in the process! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ghost47 18 #29 August 6, 2015 Quote(Also, the response to something costing a lot of money to do is to fly to America? Don't get me wrong I think going on a trip to Perris or Elsinore with UK instructors is a fine idea and you'll learn a lot, but you sure don't do it because of cost.) I brought that up --- even if you had to pay for three other slots, that seemed cheap compared to a plane ticket. What they told me was that: (a) it was difficult to find three such jumpers (they said that often the people qualified to sign off on it were doing instructional jumps in which they made money, so they didn't want to do a 4-way with a newbie) and also that, because the jumpers wouldn't teach them anything, it wasn't like you paid once, and that was that. Anyway. I recognize I have a skewed sample size --- those that I would have met are those who decided it made more sense to come to CA to do their FS1 than stay in the UK, so of course they are more likely to be the ones dissatisfied with how things were done at their DZ in the UK. I'm glad to hear that others have had different experiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #30 August 6, 2015 Andy9o8perhaps even banned from jumping in the UK Wait, what?-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #31 August 6, 2015 Joellercoaster ***perhaps even banned from jumping in the UK Wait, what? Obelix is touting that there are nefarious instructors in the UK who will knowingly not only withold signed logbooks to students who opt to move to another DZ or ask questions about their instruction, but will also take their time to collaborate with the BPA to ensure the student is blackballed from all DZs in the country - including personally making shit up if other DZs call them. Quote Not easy when the instructor withholds all logbooks and records of jumps, and when queried by a different DZ slags off the student as incompetent/stupid/impossible to train/dangerous. Hiding his own incompetence by driving people out of the sport. *puts on tinfoil hat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #32 August 6, 2015 yoink ******perhaps even banned from jumping in the UK Wait, what? Obelix is touting that there are nefarious instructors in the UK who will knowingly not only withold signed logbooks to students who opt to move to another DZ or ask questions about their instruction, but will also take their time to collaborate with the BPA to ensure the student is blackballed from all DZs in the country - including personally making shit up if other DZs call them. Quote Not easy when the instructor withholds all logbooks and records of jumps, and when queried by a different DZ slags off the student as incompetent/stupid/impossible to train/dangerous. Hiding his own incompetence by driving people out of the sport. *puts on tinfoil hat. I'm touting nothing, I'm dealing with someone who has had exactly that happen. And not for the first time. She asked the secondary instructor from her AFF course if he could provide her with evidence of the jumps she did in the UK, and within a couple of minutes received an extremely nasty response from the creep involved in this B/S practice. Straight out bullying. This happened yesterday. His problem is he thinks he is a great instructor, but couldn't help with a spinning problem, so blackballed the student from his DZ and advised other DZ's nearby to have nothing to do with her. Obviously he doesn't want to be found out to be the douchebag he really is. Trying to learn to skydive for her has been an extremely negative and frustrating experience. I've counselled her to try an offshore DZ, and shes qualified for her A licence in 2 weeks, with no problem. However she was forced to start again from scratch because she could provide no evidence of her previous course and jumps. (she got to level 6 before being told she'd never be a skydiver) This has cost her a lot of extra money, on top of what she's already paid. She's been ripped off, big time. His reason for not giving logbooks to his students is that "they will forget to bring them to the DZ", but when asked, refuses to provide them. Apparently he keeps all his students logbooks, and has a pile of them at the DZ. I suspect he hasn't bothered to fill them in. He also refuses to hand over FF video to people who have paid for them. How many of his other students have had the same treatment, and have decided to give up skydiving?. They are powerless in the face of his arrogance and membership of the BPA old boys club. If you say I'm ranting, its because this kind of B.S. annoys the hell out of me. I've spent 40 years teaching people how much fun it is to do, and how to do it safely, to simply ignore twats like this who suck the fun out of the experience, rip people off, and bully them. When I go back to the UK in a couple of months, I'm going to front this douchebag, and see what he has to say for himself face to face. He acts tough when dealing with a female student...... British skydivers deserve better than this crap.... And with regard to the OP who is asking for advice, ask in the way a couple of others have advised, (Is this OK?) and if you are still unsure, get a second, third and fourth opinion. I can easily see how low timers feel intimidated by some of peacocks who strut around the DZ. They are killing skydiving. Enough!My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #33 August 7, 2015 I have no problem with outing shitty behaviour like that. Post the name on here and see if any of his other former students agree. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the case, but this girl may have been spinning you a line, you know? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen students lie about their progression... I also have no problem bringing the BPA to heel - I agree that they're an insular old-boys network. You're original post was slamming ALL UK instruction because of a few. That's not OK. so long as we agree on that, we're good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
