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RichyR

New jumper - what to do when spotting safety issues

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Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?




Talk to your S&TA

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CSpenceFLY

***
Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?




Talk to your S&TA

Seconded.

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I agree you should talk to your CCI (or whomever would be the equivalent of an S&TA in the US).

But your mention of being a "new jumper" raises the question: are you worried that, not being a "senior" jumper, you'd be either ignored or ostracized? If so, do you trust your CCI to keep the source of his info (i.e., you) confidential?

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RichyR

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.



For the record, deployment altitudes and piloting technique also play a role. If the lady was deploying significantly lower than you and/or planning on flying more aggressively, having her leave first would make sense.

Of course I have no idea if either was the case, but it's important to consider all the variables.

And yes, the 45 degree rule is absurd.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?




It seems that sexism is still alive and well.
In my FJC, (1981) we were told by the instructor that the heavier people are dispatched first.
This was back when students were dropped under T-10s.
When it came to loading up the plane for our first jump, they wanted me to exit first.
Me = woman, ~140# and the other guy = +200#.

I brought up what was taught in class and the exit order was changed. The big guy was first pass and I was second pass. (cessna SL load)

Years later, I learned that reason 'they' put out women first is to provide social pressure for the men to jump. ie if a 'girl' went out before the 'men', then the 'man' was less likely to balk or ride the plane down. If the woman balked, the man could be shamed as in 'you don't want to be a pussy do you?' or if the woman jumped, the man could be shamed as in ' hey man - a GIRL already jumped- don't you have the balls to jump too?'

The 45 degree rule is of the same vintage of teaching.

The guy you are dealing with is old school in a big way.

Keep up the good work.


.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?



"ignore, confront, report?" are all negative processes...
If a local JM is teaching this old school messaging, perhaps *asking* your CCI about what you observed, and his thoughts on it. After he's given you his thoughts, you'll perhaps/likely have a better gauge with which to approach the next piece of the conversation. Your post suggests you understand the logic behind why most places don't still teach this old-school info.

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DSE is right on.

Ask your CCI, but phrase it in such a way that you're not accusing anyone of anything.

Something like 'I've been tying to learn about grouping and exit separation and I keep hearing people say that using a 45 degree rule doesn't work but I've heard groups here say that it does. What method should I be using? (and why?)'

Edit: which DZ are you at?

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chuckakers

***What method should I be using? (and why?)



Time. It's the only absolutely quantifiable way to insure proper separation.

Ill be sticking my plumb bob and protractor out the door, and patiently waiting until i see the previous group reach 45 degrees ;):ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: (Ever so patiently waiting)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?




Maybe the guy instructed the girl to go first because he tought she would drift much more than you.
So if she would exit after you she may be above you at pull height.

Not saying it is correct or wrong.
But I donKt believe it would be a problem to have her go after.

But as others said, the type of canopy flying is also something you have to think about.
High performance canopy or not.

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DSE


"ignore, confront, report?" are all negative processes...

If a local JM is teaching this old school messaging, perhaps *asking* your CCI about what you observed, and his thoughts on it. After he's given you his thoughts, you'll perhaps/likely have a better gauge with which to approach the next piece of the conversation.

Exactly. Going to them with a "question" because you're "confused" about what you've learned vs. what you're seeing is one of the best ways to handle it. The bad part is that instructors passing bad "old school" info also seem to be the ones most resistant to changing their syllabus to correct those mistakes.



Quote

Your post suggests you understand the logic behind why most places don't still teach this old-school info.

Why? 'Cause it's wrong! :D:D

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MakeItHappen

***
Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?




It seems that sexism is still alive and well.
In my FJC, (1981) we were told by the instructor that the heavier people are dispatched first.
This was back when students were dropped under T-10s.
When it came to loading up the plane for our first jump, they wanted me to exit first.
Me = woman, ~140# and the other guy = +200#.

I brought up what was taught in class and the exit order was changed. The big guy was first pass and I was second pass. (cessna SL load)

Years later, I learned that reason 'they' put out women first is to provide social pressure for the men to jump. ie if a 'girl' went out before the 'men', then the 'man' was less likely to balk or ride the plane down. If the woman balked, the man could be shamed as in 'you don't want to be a pussy do you?' or if the woman jumped, the man could be shamed as in ' hey man - a GIRL already jumped- don't you have the balls to jump too?'

The 45 degree rule is of the same vintage of teaching.

The guy you are dealing with is old school in a big way.

Keep up the good work.


.

Wait whuuuttt???
This thread has nothing to do with sexism and nothing in this thread is even hinting that way. And somehow you turned it into this. false-positive thought... (Aka seeing things because you are specifically looking for it, not because it is actually there).

There could have been many reasons why the girl was instructed to jump first. Most logical reasons would be deployment altitude or flight plan (Where for example bellyflyers go before freeflyers.)

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?



Its the UK. The instructors are all self centred "I am the man" tossers.

You'll be ignored and told to STFU.

Its how they work there.

Go offshore if you want to learn to skydive the right way.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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RichyR


Twice yesterday at my DZ, I saw questionable safety issues.

Firstly a JM was instructing people to leave 45 degrees between jumpers - which I understand has been proven pretty useless.

Secondly, a girl almost half my size was instructed to jump before me on the basis she was on a smaller canopy 170 vs 190, ignoring the fact I was on a much higher wing loading, and would fall faster.

What would you do if you saw the above - ignore, confront, report?



Ask him directly why he is teaching the 45 degree rule. He is an instructor and is responsible for what he teaches so you can ask about it all day without offending.
For the jump order: remember that he is not responsible for your jump. Don't like the loading order, ask for a second pass, spot your exit for longer until the other canopy is in a place that you are comfortable with or stay on the plane or something else I haven't thought of. Bottom line: not safe = no jump.
Ego and macho should stay at the bonfire, they have no place in the dirt dive or the sky.
There are no dangerous dives
Only dangerous divers

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obelixtim


Its the UK. The instructors are all self centred "I am the man" tossers.

You'll be ignored and told to STFU.

Its how they work there.

Go offshore if you want to learn to skydive the right way.




There's so much bullshit in this post that it's difficult to know where to start.

When was the last time you received any training in the UK? 20 years ago? More?
If I was a UK instructor and I saw this post I'd be fucking furious.

The BPA has its issues, but your post about individual instruction is pathetic. I have some mates who teach in the UK and I'd put them up against you for student responsiveness any day.

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No, the B.S. is totally British.

It seems I hit a nerve.

I hope they(Brit instructors) are mega furious to read it. Maybe the penny will drop that they need to change their attitude.

I just counselled a British student who was ripped off big time by a so called senior instructor who totally failed to instruct her, told her she was impossible to train, after ripping her off for thousands of pounds, failing to provide logbooks, and telling her she was a danger to herself and others.

He then informed his fellow highly qualified instructors at neighbouring DZ's to turn her away, which they did.

Surprise surprise, she goes offshore and is doing fine, with no problems.

I have also witnessed instruction from several other so called instructors, who were, quite frankly incompetent.

The whole BPA setup is a nest of incestuous members of an "old boys club" who are right up their own arses, and full of how wonderful they are....

There is a reason why many British people go offshore to learn to skydive, and I've heard horror stories from many different ones.

I'll put myself and my instruction up against anyone you care to name, any time.

It wouldn't be very fair, because frankly they couldn't instruct a fish to swim.

Dolts, the lot of them.......
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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obelixtim



Surprise surprise, she goes offshore and is doing fine, with no problems.



Equally, I've seen a number of people who have 'passed' AFF offshore who have returned to the UK, only to find out that they can't even fall stable - let alone complete any of their more advanced maneuvers required for an A license.

For me to call all foreign instructors incompetent on the basis of that sample would be as ridiculous as the statements as you're making.

That you're making in them in a thread started by a beginner to grind your personal axe is pathetic, and is why I'm irritated.


Instruction in the UK is like anywhere else in the world. There are better instructors and there are worse. The OP should follow the advice which would stand anywhere else in the world - 'ask questions. If you're given bad answers, go to a different DZ'.

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The OP should follow the advice which would stand anywhere else in the world - 'ask questions. If you're given bad answers, go to a different DZ'.



I have sat through several sessions of instruction at several different UK DZ's, cunningly disguised as an interested observer who "doesn't want to jump". Not once have I seen instruction I would consider adequate. I was even verbally abused as a coward and a chickenshit in front of a group of students by one arrogant "expert".

I restrained myself with some difficulty.....

At another I actually intervened and took over harness training when after sitting for 3 hours on a Sunday morning, another "expert" didn't bother to show up till 12 o'clock after scheduling a start time of 0800.

I've spoken to many UK low time jumpers who tell a depressingly similar story to think I'm dealing with one off situations.

As far as "talking to your instructors" that quite often results in the bowling ball speech.

Go to another DZ?.

Not easy when the instructor withholds all logbooks and records of jumps, and when queried by a different DZ slags off the student as incompetent/stupid/impossible to train/dangerous.

Hiding his own incompetence by driving people out of the sport.

Sorry mate, I've heard too many horror stories over 30 odd years, from many different people, that say UK skydiving is controlled by a bunch of arrogant arses who take themselves way too seriously, and have sucked the fun out of skydiving.

And I've NEVER heard that level of consistent criticism from anyone trained in any other country.

I have seriously considered setting up an alternative organisation to the BPA to run skydiving the way it should be run. It wouldn't be that difficult to do.

That self serving "exclusive" old boys club deserves to be put out to pasture, where it belongs, for the benefit of people in the UK who want to skydive, have fun, and not be ripped off.

And yes, I do have an axe, and yes, I will keep grinding it.

So there.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Instruction in the UK is like anywhere else in the world. There are better instructors and there are worse. The OP should follow the advice which would stand anywhere else in the world - 'ask questions. If you're given bad answers, go to a different DZ'.


I don't know anything about UK instruction. But I will say that I've met several UK jumpers who came to the states to get their FS1, which would allow them to jump with other people (an A-license is apparently insufficient to do this in the UK). To obtain a FS1, you have to do a 4-point 4-way.

I asked them why they had to fly to another country to get a 4-point 4-way -- I take up A licensers myself all the time, and turn that many points. And I do it on my own dime --- I consider it part of giving back to the sport. After all, the experienced jumpers who jumped with me when I didn't know how to do anything never asked me to pay for their slot.

The answer I have uniformly gotten is that, in the UK, you need to pay for the slots of the three other experienced jumpers to do that 4-way, and that even with that, it's hard to get three such jumpers to jump with you, and they won't teach you anything. So it's easier for these beginners to fly to California, and do it here.

This seemed incredible to me, but I was assured that's the way it was.

My experience in skydiving is limited, and I've only met a handful of UK jumpers, but that's the consistent story I've gotten from the UK beginners I've met.

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Wow. Just wow.

Aside from the fact that this is becoming way off topic, let me say that as a UK jumper (and someone who's recently returned to the sport after 15 years out), these negative comments do not reflect my own experience.

Firstly - I have come across instructors up their own arses, but to say that's a UK thing? No, it's just humans in general.

Secondly, RE: FS1. To obtain your FS1 you need to do alot more than a 4 point 4 way. That is the check out dive, but you have to demonstrate that you can fly safely with other jumpers (so control descent rate, lateral and forwards/backwards movements, turns, diving to formations).

In terms of slots? Yes I think alot of DZs state you have to pay for the other slots, but I didn't because the other jumpers were willing to pay for their own. And I will do the same in the future if I ever get asked to go on someone's FS1 dive.

You don't need to fly to the states to do your FS1, unless there's a consistent spell of bad weather here (which does happen).

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