3 3
SkyDekker

Ukraine

Recommended Posts

(edited)
8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I don't recall Ukraine inviting us in before the assault began.

We may have not been invited to the party, but once it turned into a massacre, we shouldn't wait for a cry for help.  

8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There is no easy answer.

I'd like to think there is a middle ground, but when it comes to pure evil, I don't think one can negotiate with it.  

Edited by BIGUN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Is Putin bluffing?

What authority did Putin exercise. He's been planning for this for years. No, it's not wrong. It's about as right as one can get.

I did in post #37.   

Of course Putins not bluffing. He exercised his authority as an autocrat. We don't have one of those, yet. All of post #37 was to position our troops to go in not our allies. And that's the problem, once again it would be a coalition of one and some stragglers. Without your plan there are already plenty of German, French, Dutch and British troops and planes ready to go. Let them threaten Putin first. We'll provide support in equal measures. 

Sorry man, we'll just need to agree to disagree. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And that's the problem, once again it would be a coalition of one and some stragglers. Without your plan there are already plenty of German, French, Dutch and British troops and planes ready to go.

And then he wonders why outsiders have so much to say about the US!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, and not just in the US. All over the western world the ideas of the nazis had supporters. If Hitler wasn't such a poor strategist and tactician our world could be a very different place by now. I'm of the opinion that if Trump and Trumpism had got started when he was 15 or 20 years younger he would have succeeded in turning the world upside down. 

I worked with a guy who always said "If Hitler were American he'd be a Southern Baptist."  I don't many SB's but it wouldn't surprise me to know they supported Putin via Trump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

We may have not been invited to the party, but once it turned into a massacre, we shouldn't wait for a cry for help.  

I'd like to think there is a middle ground, but when it comes to pure evil, I don't think one can negotiate with it.  

Didn't they ask to be part of NATO?  Kinda like an invite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, airdvr said:

I worked with a guy who always said "If Hitler were American he'd be a Southern Baptist."  I don't many SB's but it wouldn't surprise me to know they supported Putin via Trump.

I don't know them either. But it is said that Putin has appeal as a white Christian who regularly supports the church and it's conservative positions on social issues. That doesn't necessarily mean they support the invasion of Ukraine though. Heck, no one is prefect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Didn't they ask to be part of NATO?  Kinda like an invite.

No, I don't believe they applied for membership in either the EU or Nato. But they had leaders who were interested in exploring the possibility. Now they have asked to join the EU, but that is for show mostly because they certainly don't qualify and it would be at least a decade long process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

No, I don't believe they applied for membership in either the EU or Nato. But they had leaders who were interested in exploring the possibility. Now they have asked to join the EU, but that is for show mostly because they certainly don't qualify and it would be at least a decade long process.

"At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its own future and foreign policy course without outside interference"

Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych(Putin Stooge), who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President. Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014.

Subsequently France and Germany have in the past opposed Ukraine’s inclusion,

In the last week Finland had a petition submitted such that its government debate NATO membership. In the last two years polling went from 20% to 53% approving NATO membership. Sweden is at 63% polling approval of membership.

Edited by Phil1111
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Of course Putins not bluffing. He exercised his authority as an autocrat. We don't have one of those, yet. All of post #37 was to position our troops to go in not our allies. And that's the problem, once again it would be a coalition of one and some stragglers. Without your plan there are already plenty of German, French, Dutch and British troops and planes ready to go. Let them threaten Putin first. We'll provide support in equal measures. 

 

Couldn't agree more.

The US has not been asked to be the sole world police, once again. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

All of post #37 was to position our troops to go in not our allies.

Joe,

What I wrote was: "We will be there in 72 hours and ask for your representative to meet with us and the other 29 NATO members. If Russia has not withdrawn by that time, we will begin forward operations 72 hours after our arrival to Ramstein. President Putin: we have no desire to go to war with Russia, but if you do not leave the Ukraine in the next 72 hours; we will.

We - us and 29 other NATO allies. (maybe not enough enunciation on my part)    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Its only a matter of time till Russia holds US prisoners.

"Estonians, Latvians, Poles and Georgians were all traveling to border crossings following an appeal by Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky."

"A group of 10 special operations forces veterans are staging in Poland and preparing to cross into Ukraine,...composed of six US citizens, three Brits, and a German,Two former American infantry officers are also making plans to come to Ukraine

Meanwhile Poland wants to increase defense spending to 3% of GDP.

Edited by Phil1111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, airdvr said:

I'm not seeing swathes of support anywhere.

I have seen a fair bit of commentary that claims that the ending of the Afghanistan War caused the invasion of Ukraine. Fox News claimed that the "Russia Investigation" caused the Ukraine invasion. That is part of "blaming the US", as quoted from that article.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Joe,

What I wrote was: "We will be there in 72 hours and ask for your representative to meet with us and the other 29 NATO members. If Russia has not withdrawn by that time, we will begin forward operations 72 hours after our arrival to Ramstein. President Putin: we have no desire to go to war with Russia, but if you do not leave the Ukraine in the next 72 hours; we will.

We - us and 29 other NATO allies. (maybe not enough enunciation on my part)    

Hi Keith,

I, like you, want the US & NATO to help the Ukrainians.

I do not want US boots on the ground.

I want the US & NATO to control the skies over Ukraine.  Inform Putin that after 'such time' any and all Russian military aircraft over Ukraine are subject to being shot down.

We did this back in the 90's in Kosovo, not US boots on the ground.

After we get total control of the skies, then begin taking out all Russian ground vehicles in Ukraine.

The details I'll leave to the military.

While I was not alive back then, Chamberlain's 'Piece at last,' was a total joke.

Jerry Baumchen

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Joe,

What I wrote was: "We will be there in 72 hours and ask for your representative to meet with us and the other 29 NATO members. If Russia has not withdrawn by that time, we will begin forward operations 72 hours after our arrival to Ramstein. President Putin: we have no desire to go to war with Russia, but if you do not leave the Ukraine in the next 72 hours; we will.

We - us and 29 other NATO allies. (maybe not enough enunciation on my part)    

Forgive me for not assuming there would be consensus on anything amongst our NATO allies except that weekends and holidays must be kept open. How about we toss #37 in it's entirety and replace it with: I would seek to convene an immediate Zoom call with all NATO members where we'd take a poll of who was ready, willing and able to commit and deploy significant combat forces, not marching bands and mess tents, to a joint venture designed to counter the Russian move into the Ukraine. I would suggest that we'd all commit 2 divisions each, 1 immediately, and equal amounts of combat attack aircraft and material. On agreement, and lot's of luck there, I'd suggest there was no reason for them to wait another metric minute for us to arrive pointing out that now would be a dandy time to waste that 40 mile long armored column advancing on Kyiv. Then, and only then would I start sending American soldiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Forgive me for not assuming there would be consensus on anything amongst our NATO allies except that weekends and holidays must be kept open. How about we toss #37 in it's entirety and replace it with: I would seek to convene an immediate Zoom call with all NATO members where we'd take a poll of who was ready, willing and able to commit and deploy significant combat forces, not marching bands and mess tents, to a joint venture designed to counter the Russian move into the Ukraine. I would suggest that we'd all commit 2 divisions each, 1 immediately, and equal amounts of combat attack aircraft and material. On agreement, and lot's of luck there, I'd suggest there was no reason for them to wait another metric minute for us to arrive pointing out that now would be a dandy time to waste that 40 mile long armored column advancing on Kyiv. Then, and only then would I start sending American soldiers.

Fantasyland.  No way anyone enters Ukraine in defense.  You'd never get a coalition together.  Hell, they probably couldn't agree on what to get on a pizza.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Fantasyland.  No way anyone enters Ukraine in defense.  You'd never get a coalition together.  Hell, they probably couldn't agree on what to get on a pizza.

Agreed. But I have no doubt they'd free up several divisional cheer leading squads once Keiths army starting landing throughout Europe. Screw that noise. When they're willing then we step up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
19 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I think by now Putin must realize he has destroyed any possibility of economic interaction with Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. I fear that he may now be thinking that the only way forward is to go for broke and try to reestablish the old USSR or even Russian Empire, so Russia can exert economic domination over a bunch of subjugated "countries".   The alternative is permanent economic devastation, unless China and perhaps India can be a big enough market for Russia oil and gas to replace Europe.

 

4 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I started watching a docuseries on old Nev.  Seems he wasn't all the idiot people thought he was.

Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.  He chose appeasement and that was a position a lot of people supported at the time.  Unfortunately for his place in history, Hitler quickly proved that Churchill had the better crystal ball.

Edited by GeorgiaDon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, GeorgiaDon said:

I think by now Putin must realize he has destroyed any possibility of economic interaction with Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. 

 

Hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.  He chose appeasement and that was a position a lot of people supported at the time.  Unfortunately for his place in history, Hitler quickly proved that Churchill had the better crystal ball.

1 bad call can ruin a career...kinda like today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
9 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

... unless China and perhaps India can be a big enough market for Russia oil and gas to replace Europe....

Well their getting a deal now. "Oil Trader Trafigura Offers Russia’s Crude at a Record Discount...The oil trading giant offered the cargo at a $22.70-a-barrel discount to Dated Brent, a benchmark for physical oil transactions globally. That surpassed the prior discount it offered by about $34. There were no bids. A mostly Kazakh oil that gets exported from a Russian terminal in the Black Sea also slumped."

spacer.png

Edited by Phil1111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

3 3