Ukraine

[Phil1111 908]

18 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Back to Ukraine, here is what the United States of America has to date provided, or has committed to providing, Ukraine in the defense of world democracy. If you post here and are a citizen of a NATO country, not America, I'd like to hear from you why this horrendous asymmetry, once again paid for by we American taxpayers, is fair and right.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040

 

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Suckers. There's one born every minute. I agree, America is a sucker. And there is not a thing you can do to change it so just keep on whining as I'm very amused by the impotence of your misery and anger.

Keep in mind that President Biden and America have probably been responsible for delaying NATO weapons deliveries. Poland wanted to give Ukraine Jets over eight months ago. Biden and America have held that up. Poland, the Baltic states wanted to send tanks over six months ago. Finally the UK and Poland stepped up. America and Biden dejectedly came along. Germany just announced a commitment of over 130 tanks total to be sent. The US is not expected to have its tanks in theater for another half year. The UK and Poland are ready to send combat jets tomorrow.

Foot dragging on weapons has probably cost 25,000 Ukrainian freedom fighter 's lives. All because President Biden doesn't want to offend Putin's warmongering.

When this war first started I suggested 1,000 M1 tanks as a good start. Some of the German tanks are the older Leopard 1's with 105s. The same class as the US M1 of which 2,300 are in storage. Also armed with the smaller 105mm cannon.

I'm reluctant to criticize President Biden. But facts are facts. Furthermore those old M1s will likely never see service again. So the US taxpayer is really out nothing.

The sooner Putin is defeated. The sooner another Russian FSB officer is likely to unholster his Tokarev. To give Putin his just reward. At least then the Russian trolls in SC would have to change their tunes.

Oh! and of course there is that sucker factor as Ken mentioned.

[BIGUN 1,050]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

What do you find so attractive about Putin, and his bullying approach to power (both generation and maintenance)? I really don’t understand why invading another country, and killing off and imprisoning your opponents, is something to support

Cultural immersion

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/bitchute-hotbed-hate

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Keep in mind that President Biden and America have probably been responsible for delaying NATO weapons deliveries. Poland wanted to give Ukraine Jets over eight months ago. Biden and America have held that up. Poland, the Baltic states wanted to send tanks over six months ago. Finally the UK and Poland stepped up. America and Biden dejectedly came along. Germany just announced a commitment of over 130 tanks total to be sent. The US is not expected to have its tanks in theater for another half year. The UK and Poland are ready to send combat jets tomorrow.

Foot dragging on weapons has probably cost 25,000 Ukrainian freedom fighter 's lives. All because President Biden doesn't want to offend Putin's warmongering.

When this war first started I suggested 1,000 M1 tanks as a good start. Some of the German tanks are the older Leopard 1's with 105s. The same class as the US M1 of which 2,300 are in storage. Also armed with the smaller 105mm cannon.

I'm reluctant to criticize President Biden. But facts are facts. Furthermore those old M1s will likely never see service again. So the US taxpayer is really out nothing.

The sooner Putin is defeated. The sooner another Russian FSB officer is likely to unholster his Tokarev. To give Putin his just reward. At least then the Russian trolls in SC would have to change their tunes.

Oh! and of course there is that sucker factor as Ken mentioned.

That's certainly an interesting view of history; you even have a close approximation of the number of Ukrainians killed by American foot dragging. Maybe we should have sent them an Aircraft Carrier Battle group on day two to keep the ports open and 6 wings of F-16's flown by Americans instead of going on the cheap as we have. Maybe 1000 M-1 tanks inferior to the T-72's etc that we helped organize into Ukrainian hands would have been smarter. Surely the Ukrainians could have figured out how to operate them from your day one by watching Youtube videos. Of course 3D printing would supply spare parts. Surely a little Vulcan mind melding could have supplied trained mechanics by day two at the latest. But no, Biden chose to help them with material they could actually use from the stocks of partners who used Soviet equipment and also build consensus in NATO. I might point out that Ukraine still exists as a nation almost a year into the war and our NATO partners, including Canada who just went large sending one antique tank to the fight, are girding for a longer fight backed up by guess who. Pretty much I think you don't have it right. 

[normiss 620]

5 minutes ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Who cares about humble?

That gets you aging and passing prematurely, in this racket.

They all seem to be coming true however...

I called the war while you were still talking about muzzling kids.

Priority date check out the upload date. One week before Putin even suggested he was going to enter.

The only other entity that I have seen mention MH 17 in all of this... is Oliver Stone and his son, with their presentation "Ukraine on fire".

When completely separate people come to the same conclusions with completely different Hypotheses and observations>>> that's science baby>>>

https://www.bitchute.com/video/6pU4wtdWbNmd/

shall we see what happens on the anneversary.



 

I'm hopeful the door hits you in the ass on the way out.

Hard.

[Phil1111 908]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

I'm hopeful the door hits you in the ass on the way out.

Hard.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a transfer to the Ukrainian front.

[jakee 1,254]

20 hours ago, wmw999 said:

What do you find so attractive about Putin, and his bullying approach to power (both generation and maintenance)? I really don’t understand why invading another country, and killing off and imprisoning your opponents, is something to support

The enemy of my enemy. Rhys has built his entire identity around being the guy who can see through all the lies and conspiracies of western government and the new world order. They are the authors of all evil in the world. Putin also calls that out, so he must be in the right, and anything he does must be right. Thus the person who claims to be a lone voice calling out fascism is actually staunchly supporting a fascist dictator.

Edited February 12, 2023 by jakee

[jakee 1,254]

16 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

But no, Biden chose to help them with material they could actually use…

Mate. What is actually wrong with you?

You have been definitively proven to be utterly wrong about the impossibility of Ukrainians operating Abrams tanks and yet you are still claiming that weapons have been held back from Ukraine on the basis of what they are able to use.

This is beyond ignorant, it’s just a fantasy world of your own creation. Every politician, every analyst, every news outlet is telling you the same thing - “offensive” weaponry has been intentionally held back and drip fed into Ukrainians step by slow step with the avoidance of being seen to ‘escalate’ the war being the primary consideration in when and how Ukraine will get these weapons. 
 

The view that the US or any other nation in the west (bar Poland) is willing to give Ukraine absolutely anything they’re capable of operating cannot seriously be held by anyone who’s given this war 5 minutes of attention ever since it started. 
 

Phil is being unfair saying Biden is holding back when every major NATO member has had approximately the same level of caution. You are being flat out ridiculous. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

19 hours ago, lippy said:

You've shared a whole lot of opinions on here, not a single one's been humble

Or correct. Typical Rhys rhetoric.

On 2/10/2023 at 8:53 PM, JoeWeber said:

Back to Ukraine, here is what the United States of America has to date provided, or has committed to providing, Ukraine in the defense of world democracy. If you post here and are a citizen of a NATO country, not America, I'd like to hear from you why this horrendous asymmetry, once again paid for by we American taxpayers, is fair and right.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040

Well, first off, the US has the largest defense budget in the world. By far. Something like 40% of the entire world's spending. More than the next nine COMBINED. 
That means we're likely to provide the lions share of the aid to Ukraine. 
Simply because we have the stuff. 

Much of what we're giving is existing stocks. Stuff that's sitting in storage, some of it expiring reasonably soon (as opposed to Russia who's using stuff that is long expired). 

The M1 Abrams that are going are old stock sitting in storage. Bought and paid for a LONG time ago. 

 

Besides, from a strictly pragmatic point of view, the Russians attacking is the best thing that's happened to NATO in a while (no, it's not really 'good'). 
We are finding out what would have happened had Russia attacked Europe.

We are finding out what equipment works well and what doesn't. Javelin ATGMs are great. Switchblade drones aren't. Attack helicopters are not terribly effective and extremely vulnerable. 
We're finding out that Russian tanks have serious flaws and vulnerabilities.  We already knew that Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) is essential to control of the air (neither side is doing it, so attack aircraft are very vulnerable).

We're learning what tactics work and what ones don't.

We've learned that allowing the kleptocrats to steal all the defense funds leaves the military in a really bad position. 

We've learned (again) that when a bully threatens to beat someone up, placating him simply goads him into more attacks. The only real way to stop him is to STOP him. 
Fortunately, most of the rest of the free world is taking this lesson to heart. Lots of folks are wanting to join NATO. And make it clear, they want to. They aren't being forced or coerced, as Putler and his trolls would like everyone to believe. 

We've learned how effective propaganda is, and at the same time are learning how to counter it (we have a ways to go on that front). 

And the price we are paying for these lessons is super cheap. 

No American troops are involved (nor any other NATO nation's troops) 

Note: It hasn't been officially acknowledged, but the presence of US Special Forces, UK SAS and other 'special ops' types is a virtual certainty. But that happens in just about every conflict on the planet.

30 minutes ago, jakee said:

...Phil is being unfair saying Biden is holding back when every major NATO member has had approximately the same level of caution. You are being flat out ridiculous. 

Very true.

Germany wouldn't send Leopard tanks, or allow any other country to send them, until the US committed to sending Abrams. 

The general idea was fear of Putler. 

He kept drawing 'red lines' regarding NATO aid to Ukraine. As each of those lines was ignored and crossed, he just made more stupid threats.

Funny how Putin's threats of nuclear and radiological ('dirty bombs') disappeared after Biden sent the message that doing that would be a REALLY  bad idea. 

As it becomes apparent how weak Russia really is, the likelyhood of better artillery (HIMARS with the longer reach), jet planes (F-15s & F-16s), and all sorts of other stuff is becoming greater.
 

We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

As it becomes apparent how weak Russia really is, the likelyhood of better artillery (HIMARS with the longer reach), jet planes (F-15s & F-16s), and all sorts of other stuff is becoming greater.

Hi Joe,

And, IMO it cannot happen soon enough.  

I do not claim to be any type of military expert; but, I do think the Russian military is just about non-existent.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,294]

11 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

And, IMO it cannot happen soon enough. 

Absolutely. Apparently we were able to get them enough Soviet equipment that they could use right away. We supplied immediately usable intelligence right away. We supplied advanced artillery that was usable soon enough. We apparently supplied Javelin and other portable anti-tank and anti aircraft systems soon enough. I say soon enough because with that help the Ukrainians were able to fight back and reclaim territory. A year in Ukraine is still a sovereign nation, the war is yet contained in Ukraine, and Russia has thus far been humiliated by it's military incompetence and inability to win a quick war against a much weaker and contiguous nation. The frog is on the boil, seems to me. I continue to have faith that Biden, our military leaders, and our NATO partners will keep the Ukrainians well equipped and the war contained.

[ryoder 1,381]

When are Putin's associates going to learn: STAY ON THE GROUND FLOOR!

Top Russian Military Official Dead After Fall From 16th Floor

[Phil1111 908]

40 minutes ago, ryoder said:

When are Putin's associates going to learn: STAY ON THE GROUND FLOOR!

Top Russian Military Official Dead After Fall From 16th Floor

What about touching or using doorknobs? Or this week "Most recently, fired Russian Interior Ministry Major General Vladimir Makarov was found dead this week in an apparent suicide, The Moscow Times reported."

"A former Russian police general who had been in charge of cracking down on protesters has been found dead in an apparent suicide following his dismissal by President Vladimir Putin, state media reported.

Major General Vladimir Makarov, 72, had helped oversee Russia's crackdown on opposition activists in his role as deputy chief of the Russian police's anti-extremism unit.

Putin dismissed Makarov, who was described as “once the main organizer of the ‘hunt’ for opposition activists and inconvenient journalists,” in late January."

It appears as if suicide and falls from windows may soon become the third leading cause of death in Russia. With "Special Military Operations" as number one. Vodka as number two.

Perhaps my suggestion a week or so ago that Putin should watch out for a Makarov shot to the back of his head. Was misinterpreted.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Phil1111

[normiss 620]

12 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

What about touching or using doorknobs? Or this week "Most recently, fired Russian Interior Ministry Major General Vladimir Makarov was found dead this week in an apparent suicide, The Moscow Times reported."

"A former Russian police general who had been in charge of cracking down on protesters has been found dead in an apparent suicide following his dismissal by President Vladimir Putin, state media reported.

Major General Vladimir Makarov, 72, had helped oversee Russia's crackdown on opposition activists in his role as deputy chief of the Russian police's anti-extremism unit.

Putin dismissed Makarov, who was described as “once the main organizer of the ‘hunt’ for opposition activists and inconvenient journalists,” in late January."

It appears as if suicide and falls from windows may soon become the third leading cause of death in Russia. With "Special Military Operations" as number one. Vodka as number two.

Perhaps my suggestion a week or so ago that Putin should watch out for a Makarov shot to the back of his head. Was misinterpreted.

Working in Tech and DoD environments has given me some interesting experiences.

At a defense security event a few years ago, I was talking to a rep from a chemical company. I was curious why they were attending. He said simply, let me show you.

He touched the back of my hand with a swab, my brain immediately had me salivating with pure lemon flavor.

The is just our demo material, with a few winks.

Damn. 

[Phil1111 908]

5 hours ago, normiss said:

Working in Tech and DoD environments has given me some interesting experiences.

At a defense security event a few years ago, I was talking to a rep from a chemical company. I was curious why they were attending. He said simply, let me show you.

He touched the back of my hand with a swab, my brain immediately had me salivating with pure lemon flavor.

The is just our demo material, with a few winks.

Damn. 

I've heard that big US defense companies salivate when their guaranteed profit contracts are released. Then they get together and have lemon twists in their martinis to celebrate.

Sweet.

[BIGUN 1,050]

Pulling from Bill's post in the "Biden Blowing It" thread of, "Gotta say Biden has been sort of kicking butt lately" along with Joe's, "The frog is on the boil, seems to me. I continue to have faith that Biden, our military leaders, and our NATO partners will keep the Ukrainians well equipped and the war contained."  -

Personally, I'm opposed to the "boiling frogs" approach. 30+years ago, we became mercenaries for Kuwait. They paid the bill. When asked who will help - 200 of them raised their hands. Then, we were paid to get in to it. Today, we pay to stay out of it. If we believe in it enough; we should either be in it or not. 

I am reminded of Katrina. Multiple vendors feeding 3-7,000 people three meals a day. Sean Penn gets off the helicopter with a couple of bags of groceries and the media paints him as the great savior. No surprise. Celebrities always throw money at it so they don't have to get their hands dirty. 

It's all theatre.     

[JoeWeber 2,294]

41 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Pulling from Bill's post in the "Biden Blowing It" thread of, "Gotta say Biden has been sort of kicking butt lately" along with Joe's, "The frog is on the boil, seems to me. I continue to have faith that Biden, our military leaders, and our NATO partners will keep the Ukrainians well equipped and the war contained."  -

Personally, I'm opposed to the "boiling frogs" approach. 30+years ago, we became mercenaries for Kuwait. They paid the bill. When asked who will help - 200 of them raised their hands. Then, we were paid to get in to it. Today, we pay to stay out of it. If we believe in it enough; we should either be in it or not. 

I am reminded of Katrina. Multiple vendors feeding 3-7,000 people three meals a day. Sean Penn gets off the helicopter with a couple of bags of groceries and the media paints him as the great savior. No surprise. Celebrities always throw money at it so they don't have to get their hands dirty. 

It's all theatre.     

For one, we don’t do get in and out very well. Second, rope a dope is a proven winning strategy. 
The US army doesn’t need to arrive on the ground owing to anyones interpretation of right, wrong, or whether we’ve crossed any artificially created belief threshold. Even if it is right to be more involved it’s even righter to prepare the battle field first. Please be reminded that the last two times we jumped in with both feet it went to hell regardless of how many NATO soldiers died or how much money we spent. So far things are working.

[BIGUN 1,050]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

For one, we don’t do get in and out very well.

We did. We can again. 

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Please be reminded that the last two times we jumped in with both feet it went to hell regardless of how many NATO soldiers died or how much money we spent.

You skipped over Desert Storm. But, ya know as long as it's ~45,000 Ukrainians, it's all good. 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

We did. We can again. 

You skipped over Desert Storm. But, ya know as long as it's ~45,000 Ukrainians, it's all good. 

It’s the attitude that we are the world’s savior that drives our bloated defense budget and gives people like Bin Laden the idea that with a little goading we’ll happily bash our heads against the wall. Biden is organizing a real coalition, not like Bush’s absurd coalition of the willing. Yes it’s rough on Ukrainians but it’s not always our soldiers turn to die.

[BIGUN 1,050]

29 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

he world’s savior that drives our bloated defense budget

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by BIGUN

[jakee 1,254]

There is a middle ground between the two of you. Joe may well be right that it's not the situation to send western troops into, and Bigun's right that the 'boiling frogs' approach has been unnecessarily cautious. There have been numerous points in the war where supply of heavier and longer range weaponry that we ended up giving them (or will give them) anyway could have made huge differences. Imagine what 10 or 15 Himars and plenty of rockets could have done to the convoy stuck outside Kyiv, and imagine what that would have meant for the eastern front that many of those Russian vehicles ended up redeploying to?

 

We're way beyond the point of worrying that any of Putin's extreme threats might actually be serious, and the damage done to the Russian military will already take years or decades to repair. At this point we shoud stop with any worries about what might be seen as 'offensive' and supply them with whatever they can use that can cripple Russia's ability to 1) bomb civilian targets across Ukraine and 2) protect the territory they've seized. Even if that means enabling Ukraine to strike hard at airfields and supply depots inside Russia. 

[jakee 1,254]

Something fun to watch could be the future of Yevgeny Prigozhin, the psychopathic Wagner commander. He doesn’t seem to understand Putin’s game of building up then chopping down his closest advisors, and is acting as if he’s genuinely important enough to be indispensable to the Boss. After Prigozhin accused Russia’s General Staff of treason(!) for not giving his mercenaries enough ammunition, Putin dropped a line into yesterdays speech urging an end to petty squabbles and distractions among military leaders. Prigozhin’s response was that he hadn’t bothered to watch Putin’s speech because he was too busy with the war. 
 

The 5th story window is calling…

Edited February 22, 2023 by jakee

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

11 hours ago, jakee said:

Something fun to watch could be the future of Yevgeny Prigozhin, the psychopathic Wagner commander. He doesn’t seem to understand Putin’s game of building up then chopping down his closest advisors, and is acting as if he’s genuinely important enough to be indispensable to the Boss. After Prigozhin accused Russia’s General Staff of treason(!) for not giving his mercenaries enough ammunition, Putin dropped a line into yesterdays speech urging an end to petty squabbles and distractions among military leaders. Prigozhin’s response was that he hadn’t bothered to watch Putin’s speech because he was too busy with the war. 
 

The 5th story window is calling…

Yup.

Prigozhin has reportedly had his access to Russian prisons (and recruiting prisoners) cut off.

He's bitching that his thugs are not getting enough ammunition, which they had been getting before. 

People who watch more closely and are more knowledgeable than I are implying that his 'star' is no longer rising. 

It's not terribly surprising. Anyone who starts to accumulate any sort of power is viewed by Putin as a threat. 

[olofscience 420]

On 2/11/2023 at 11:35 AM, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Zelenski is crimson mist or captured by the end of the month. IMHO

Putin has already postured 500ktroops a bunch of tanks, the peat is frozen and he already had his press beifing.

Crimson mist is my guess.

Too bad Rhys is probably on a 30-day time out because he was wrong, again.

But worry not, he'll be back in a few days with new predictions of Russian success!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

33 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Too bad Rhys is probably on a 30-day time out because he was wrong, again.

But worry not, he'll be back in a few days with new predictions of Russian success!

Kinda depends on how one defines 'success'.

In and around Vuhledar, Russia waged a pretty fierce tank battle.
They lost.
Depending on who you believe, somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 tanks. Almost certainly over 100. Plus the various other vehicles, armored and not, that accompany that sort of thing. And a whole lot of troops too.

Reports are saying that Russia sent the tanks into battle in column. Which virtually guaranteed their destruction. Reports are also saying that the Russian army is restructuring their armor troops into a 'new' configuration. Because they have to. Because they don't have the capability or the equipment to properly deploy them. 

Also in the 'success' file, the G20 held talks in Delhi. 

At that meeting, Foreign Minister Lavrov claimed that Ukraine attacked Russia.
The audience laughed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/mar/04/g20-russia-foreign-minister-sergei-lavrov-ukraine-video

[riggerrob 558]

On 3/4/2023 at 4:02 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Kinda depends on how one defines 'success'.

In and around Vuhledar, Russia waged a pretty fierce tank battle.
They lost.
Depending on who you believe, somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 tanks. Almost certainly over 100. Plus the various other vehicles, armored and not, that accompany that sort of thing. And a whole lot of troops too.

Reports are saying that Russia sent the tanks into battle in column. Which virtually guaranteed their destruction. Reports are also saying that the Russian army is restructuring their armor troops into a 'new' configuration. Because they have to. Because they don't have the capability or the equipment to properly deploy them. 

Also in the 'success' file, the G20 held talks in Delhi. 

At that meeting, Foreign Minister Lavrov claimed that Ukraine attacked Russia.
The audience laughed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/mar/04/g20-russia-foreign-minister-sergei-lavrov-ukraine-video

One rumor has it that Russian tanks were forced to advance in columns, along roads, because fields were strewn with Ukrainian land mines. The narrow advance just made it easier for Ukrainian anti-tank crews to know where to wait in ambush.