Ukraine

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Traditionally a no-fly zone includes keeping missiles from the sky...artillery obviously a different subject.

Ground launched missiles are essentially artillery.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

13 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I once read an article by a historian who was arguing that instead of taking on the German army head-to-head, the Allies could have dramatically shortened the war by focusing on just one thing: Depriving Germany of petroleum.

Hi Robert,

And, that is why the allies kept bombing Ploesti.

Operation Pluto - Wikipedia

Ploesti Oil Fields, Air Raids on | Encyclopedia.com

Jerry Baumchen

[Phil1111 908]

43 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Phill,

How sweet that photo is.

Jerry Baumchen

I'm so tired of seeing news of refugees and the war is only 10 days old. I want to see pictures of burning Russian armor. For some Russian armor the burning may go on for a while. This story from Interesting Engineering:

In other good news:"In less than a week, the United States and NATO have pushed more than 17,000 antitank weapons, including Javelin missiles, over the borders of Poland and Romania, unloading them from giant military cargo planes so they can make the trip by land to Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, and other major cities. So far, Russian forces have been so preoccupied in other parts of the country that they have not targeted the arms supply lines, but few think that can last."

When your army is busy killing/shelling civilians, looting banks, etc. Who has time to go after supply lines.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[kallend 1,621]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I'd have to take exception with that professor. IMO the Dauntless dive bomber,or the Avenger torpedo A/C. Took out more Japanese shipping. Two Yamato class battleships at 70,000 tons each, 1/2 dozen Japanese a/c carriers. Many cruisers, etc.

IMO, your opinion is incorrect.

The Swordfish had a 2 year start (how conveniently people forget) and sank lots of axis ships in the Med and the Atlantic.  It wasn't just a handful of battleships.

It also sank 21 U-boats.

http://www.aviation-history.com/fairey/swordfish.html

Edited March 7, 2022 by kallend

[Phil1111 908]

19 minutes ago, kallend said:

IMO, your opinion is incorrect.

The Swordfish had a 2 year start (how conveniently people forget) and sank lots of axis ships in the Med and the Atlantic.  It wasn't just a handful of battleships.

It also sank 21 U-boats.

http://www.aviation-history.com/fairey/swordfish.html

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in the absence of information more certain. According to this USN study US carrier airpower sunk 2 million tons of Japanese ships.https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/j/japanese-naval-merchant-shipping-losses-wwii.html

[piisfish 135]

If seems that a smart former President of the USA said that they should paint a couple of F22’s with Chinese flags, drop a couple of bombs over Russia and watch these 2 countries fight against each other. 

[billvon 2,380]

7 minutes ago, piisfish said:

If seems that a smart former President of the USA said that they should paint a couple of F22’s with Chinese flags, drop a couple of bombs over Russia and watch these 2 countries fight against each other. 

What a great idea!  Fantastic!  Amazing!  No one has had a better idea!  And since Trump has kept this idea a secret, Putin will never suspect that those F-22's are American instead of Chinese.  I mean, China doesn't have any F-22's but I'm sure Putin doesn't know that.

He did keep it secret.  Right?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Interesting way of conceding that it would indeed be naïve to believe you could institute a no-fly zone without escalating the war.

It was you who first used the term "no-fly zone" in this thread. I have stated here that I didn't think a European Nation acting offensively would trigger Article 5. If I stated anywhere that I thought a NATO no-fly zone imposed over Ukraine was a fine idea then I was crazy but I'm pretty sure I did not. I have stated that Brents idea of supplying missile defense systems to be used along the border was a good idea. Along the way we clarified what a no fly zone was (BIGUN) and that firing missiles from Polish soil was a bad idea. So why are you still flogging this horse?

[SkyDekker 1,121]

17 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It was you who first used the term "no-fly zone" in this thread. I have stated here that I didn't think a European Nation acting offensively would trigger Article 5. If I stated anywhere that I thought a NATO no-fly zone imposed over Ukraine was a fine idea then I was crazy but I'm pretty sure I did not. I have stated that Brents idea of supplying missile defense systems to be used along the border was a good idea. Along the way we clarified what a no fly zone was (BIGUN) and that firing missiles from Polish soil was a bad idea. So why are you still flogging this horse?

So when you said: "they don't even want to provide air cover..." you had something entirely different in mind?

 

 

 

 

[BIGUN 1,049]

Along these lines . . .

“No matter how perilous the international landscape, we will maintain our strategic focus and promote the development of a comprehensive China-Russia partnership in the new era,” Wang said. https://thehill.com/policy/international/597136-china-praises-ties-to-russia-sending-aid-to-ukraine

My understanding is the "U.S. goods and services trade with China totaled an estimated $615.2 billion." Russia's contribution of goods and services with "China is $146.9 billion. "

If we learned nothing from the pandemic; Communist China (or Russia) should not have a firm grasp on our manufacturing and supply chain. If we propped up Latin, Central America and Canada with a blended distribution of manufacturing and supply between the US and them - wouldn't that benefit everyone? More jobs. less illegal immigration, stronger ties in the Americas? 

Thoughts.  

[SkyDekker 1,121]

7 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

If we learned nothing from the pandemic; Communist China (or Russia) should not have a firm grasp on our manufacturing and supply chain. If we propped up Latin, Central America and Canada with a blended distribution of manufacturing and supply between the US and them - wouldn't that benefit everyone? More jobs. less illegal immigration, stronger ties in the Americas? 

Thoughts.  

Fully agree that we need to start manufacturing in North America again. I think the hardest part will be convincing people that a rise in costs will be worth it. This means growing the middle class, which has been steadily disappearing.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

8 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Along these lines . . .

“No matter how perilous the international landscape, we will maintain our strategic focus and promote the development of a comprehensive China-Russia partnership in the new era,” Wang said. https://thehill.com/policy/international/597136-china-praises-ties-to-russia-sending-aid-to-ukraine

My understanding is the "U.S. goods and services trade with China totaled an estimated $615.2 billion." Russia's contribution of goods and services with "China is $146.9 billion. "

If we learned nothing from the pandemic; Communist China (or Russia) should not have a firm grasp on our manufacturing and supply chain. If we propped up Latin, Central America and Canada with a blended distribution of manufacturing and supply between the US and them - wouldn't that benefit everyone? More jobs. less illegal immigration, stronger ties in the Americas? 

Thoughts.  

Hi Keith,

I am an advocate of bringing as much mfg back to the US as we can.  If it means another dollar or two for that new shirt, so be it.

Sam Walton is the guy who started bringing in cheap goods from non-US mfg countries.  Americans ate it up; we still do.

I have a good friend who used to be in the clothing mfg business.  He once told me that the total mfg time for a pair of blue jeans was 6 minutes.  NOTE:  That is for mass production; no customization of any type.

Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,049]

26 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Sam Walton is the guy who started bringing in cheap goods from non-US mfg countries.

Afternoon, Jerry.

After he passed; it was Sam's kids who started reducing costs by importing.  Sam was all about "Buy American." 

[billvon 2,380]

43 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

If we learned nothing from the pandemic; Communist China (or Russia) should not have a firm grasp on our manufacturing and supply chain. If we propped up Latin, Central America and Canada with a blended distribution of manufacturing and supply between the US and them - wouldn't that benefit everyone? More jobs. less illegal immigration, stronger ties in the Americas? 

Absolutely.  Unfortunately this will be presented as "liberals want to tax you and send your money to other countries, and then raise the price of your essentials!"

[Phil1111 908]

The current number of unemployed Americans is 6.3 million, or 3.8% 888,000 are on temporary layoffs. 12 month wages are up 5.1%. The current number of employers with jobs available is 10.9 million.Economists in the US judge full employment at a "unemployment" rate between 4.1%-4.7%

Generally speaking its unwise for any trading economy to try to employ people in low paying industries. Inflation generally takes place when too little goods and services. Is pursued by too many buyers, with too much money.

I'd say buy jeans made in central and south America. Buy as little as possible from China. Nothing from Russia.

Levi Strauss manufacturing list of where its jeans are made.

[Phil1111 908]

3 minutes ago, billvon said:

Absolutely.  Unfortunately this will be presented as "liberals want to tax you and send your money to other countries, and then raise the price of your essentials!"

A week after congress passes a law to bar Russian oil imports. The GOP will be blaming high gas prices on Biden.

Did I say a week!, Silly me! I meant the time it takes to send a tweet.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[BIGUN 1,049]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

Absolutely.  Unfortunately this will be presented as "liberals want to tax you and send your money to other countries, and then raise the price of your essentials!"

You bastards!

We're doomed. I have no friggin clue what it's going to take to bring this country back together.  

[Phil1111 908]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You bastards!

We're doomed. I have no friggin clue what it's going to take to bring this country back together.  

No, you're wrong. Current US PEW polling shows that hating each other in the US. Is now secondary to all hating Russians.

[kallend 1,621]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in the absence of information more certain. According to this USN study US carrier airpower sunk 2 million tons of Japanese ships.https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/j/japanese-naval-merchant-shipping-losses-wwii.html

"Carrier airpower" includes many types of aircraft.  Try again without moving the goalposts.

Edited March 8, 2022 by kallend

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Afternoon, Jerry.

After he passed; it was Sam's kids who started reducing costs by importing.  Sam was all about "Buy American." 

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the correction; all along I just thought it was old Sam.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

So when you said: "they don't even want to provide air cover..." you had something entirely different in mind?

 

 

 

 

Nope. I meant just that. It was a reference to the will of individual European Nations not a call to anyone to impose a NATO led No-Fly Zone over Ukraine. You will notice, perhaps, that I didn't state that we we or NATO should. Again, and I get that you will disagree, I think there are scenarios where our European friends can act unilaterally without causing the rest of the NATO alliance to be involved.

[brenthutch 383]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Even if it was possible to enforce a no fly zone it would hardly matter. Russia is not bombarding from aircraft. This is a ground war with missiles and artillery.

Western Ukraine is beyond the reach of artillery and rockets and ballistic missiles can be intercepted with modern surface to air systems 

[SkyDekker 1,121]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I think there are scenarios where our European friends can act unilaterally without causing the rest of the NATO alliance to be involved.

Sure there are. Air cover over Ukraine just isn't one of them.

In the mean time many nations are working on providing lethal and non-lethal support to Ukraine.

Of course Russia's foreign minister is now stating that providing weapons to Ukraine may also be seen as an escalation of war by those countries. I don't see a way for this conflict to remain within Ukraine without significant consequences. Hope I am wrong.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Sure there are. Air cover over Ukraine just isn't one of them.

In the mean time many nations are working on providing lethal and non-lethal support to Ukraine.

Of course Russia's foreign minister is now stating that providing weapons to Ukraine may also be seen as an escalation of war by those countries. I don't see a way for this conflict to remain within Ukraine without significant consequences. Hope I am wrong.

I also hope you are wrong. But until there are for real bright lines drawn we need to do what we can. Same as after for real bright lines are drawn. I feel for Keith who believes strongly that military action by the US, followed by NATO, is what is needed now to save Ukrainian lives. I simply believe that is not true. I believe that containing the war in Ukraine is the current best plan. 

[airdvr 197]

51 minutes ago, kallend said:

"Carrier airpower" includes many types of aircraft.  Try again without moving the goalposts.

Is any of this back and forth going to change the outcome?