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snowlep

Too fast horizontally on landing

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Squeak

***For one thing they have been known to hurt people real bad on opening. I'm one of them.


there should be a ceremonial burning of ALL Sabre1 canopies. (This is from a guy who jumps a Stiletto, also 20 year old design.)

Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to who has jumped a sabre 1 has loved the canopy. At least, once they sew a pocket into the slider. After a friend of mine downsized through three of them, I suggested that he talk to PD about making him a brand new one.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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I put over 300 jumps on a sabre 1 170 loaded at 1.25, it was my first canopy. I now jump a sabre 2 150 and I have to say that I really do miss the openings on my Sabre 1. It never slammed me, not once and 95% of the time it opened on heading and within 800ft. Can't really say the same for the Sabre 2, its a softer opening for sure and takes a little more altitude but I find that it always wants to go one way or the other depending on which end cell is more collapsed than the other. But I would never go back now that's for sure! To the OP, like it was said, give yourself lots of runway and fly that thing till it won't fly any more, if you think the toggles are all the way down then go further, curl your wrists at the very very end if you have to.

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Have you considered upsizing until you have more canopy experience. I recently downsized to a 150, I am a 1:1 now, and that baby flies much more quickly than my 170. Everything happens more quickly at higher WL.
I am a few hundred jump wonder here, but I flew a .85 to 1 until 186 jumps. I am not trying to be a buzzkill, but at 70 jumps 'we' need more forgiveness than a 1:1.25 WL. Of course you are coming in hot, 1:1.25 will do that, and it will especially seem so at 70 jumps.
I am conservative, I admit, but I want to conserve my spine, neck, coccyx, and skydive career.
Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

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I managed to make 6 jumps this past weekend on my Pilot 168 and I've had the best landings since I started jumping, including one downwind (the others were in no wind). I just feel like I can keep flaring till tomorrow. Besides the different canopy, other differences that might've contributed is a tidy dz with evenly cut grass on a level field (had fun 'skating' along it for a couple landings) and not wearing shorts (no fear of skinning my legs).

So besides the much older Sabre probably having lost its performance due to age/use and possibly the lines as well, I think my problems were probably mainly down to timing the flare and additional stress over the condition of the landing area (even though this past weekend was my first time at the dz I was at). Honestly, I'm really happy with the Pilot and am having fun learning it but will avoid jumping the Sabre even if it means not jumping that weekend.

@Cari If I'm not mistaken differences in performance are larger between smaller canopies than larger ones at the same wing loading. So your experience downsizing from a 170 to a 150 would be much more radical than me downsizing from a 210 to a 190 even though we'd be at the same wl.

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@snowlep-

Yes and No. I believe some of our veteran skydivers can explain it much better than I can, but WL matters even on larger canopies.

You cannot blame landing area on poor landings. This is partly why you need more experience on a larger canopy, because you need to be able to land in ANY situation comfortably.

I know I can land in someone's backyard if I HAD to. I know that I could land, and PLF if needed, anywhere comfortably. The fact that you had an issue with landing area says you need more practice.. Again, just my 2 cents and you can take it or leave it. This is coming from my experience in listening and learning from the old timers and AFP instructors.
Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

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******
2. You shouldn't lean into the chest strap throughout the landing. If your weight is forward, your wing will be forward so your pitch will be steeper while you're flaring. At some point you want your weight more on the rear set of lines to aid in the flare process since it gets the wing more overhead and decreases your pitch. For me I lean into my chest strap on final and shift my weight back as I begin to flare.***

What? Why would you lean back at the end of the landing? I mean you do not want to stay in a "superman" but leaning back?
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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I only have POV film of my landings but they were like this in no wind. Just two steps to walk it off. I think I even had some unused break line, so my next jumps I'm hoping will be at 1000m so I can just focus on completing the flare and practicing the timing. Wheras the Sabre would level me off but barely slow me down horizontally, if at all (under no wind condition).

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snowlep

I only have POV film of my landings



Uhh, are you jumping with camera at 75 jumps? Please don't, it's a terribly dangerous idea which can hurt you and others. USPA recommendation is at least 200 jumps, DFU requires 150 + formal coaching with at least 5 exam jumps. Those requirements are there for a reason. I assume you didn't know about any such guidelines and didn't get any coaching before strapping a GoPro onto your helmet? If so, please get camera-specific coaching before next jump with a camera, and get your gear cleared for those jumps. And really, wait until you have 200 skydives.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I suppose if we are going to crawl up and nail ourselves to a cross...best to ensure that it is a big one. Who knows what the camera rules are in the OP's federation are...granted they're not 75 jumps but they could be as low as 100 pending requirements etc.

At any rate, to avoid turning this into a thread about who is the most camera safeish...to the OP: welcome to no wind / "light and variable" landings.

Outside of all the advice given - which was good, and the resources offered - which were many...you also identified a common problem experienced by new and old jumpers...finishing your flare. It is, at times, easy to half-ass your flare in a good headwind and land perfectly normal. No wind / downwind...finish that flare completely and use the science to convert the speed to lift. And prepare to take a step or two.

I'm sure people can / will critique the finer points of your flare technique etc but that wasn't a bad landing by any stretch.

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GoHuskers

*** 1. you might have your brakes too long. Talk with a rigger.

2. On landing, lean out of your harness into the chest strap, legs under your centre of mass, with one foot leading for the run.



1. My wife had the same problem and couldn't get the tail to cup enough to cook off horizontal speed. Not really sure if single-wrap stall is the gold standard of testing but if someone films you land, you should see the tail cupping and get plenty of educated opinions from the video.

2. You shouldn't lean into the chest strap throughout the landing. If your weight is forward, your wing will be forward so your pitch will be steeper while you're flaring. At some point you want your weight more on the rear set of lines to aid in the flare process since it gets the wing more overhead and decreases your pitch. For me I lean into my chest strap on final and shift my weight back as I begin to flare.

I suggest you read the Parachute and its Pilot. The author explains canopy dynamics and breaks it down with illustrations that really increase your understanding of canopy design and flight. A great read and worth every penny of it. Best of Luck


Ok so does Brians book say anything about leaning backwards flares the canopy?
If his book does not mention it, why do you think that is?

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Hellis

***2. You shouldn't lean into the chest strap throughout the landing. If your weight is forward, your wing will be forward so your pitch will be steeper while you're flaring. At some point you want your weight more on the rear set of lines to aid in the flare process since it gets the wing more overhead and decreases your pitch. For me I lean into my chest strap on final and shift my weight back as I begin to flare.

I suggest you read the Parachute and its Pilot. The author explains canopy dynamics and breaks it down with illustrations that really increase your understanding of canopy design and flight. A great read and worth every penny of it. Best of Luck



Ok so does Brians book say anything about leaning backwards flares the canopy?
If his book does not mention it, why do you think that is?

Funnily enough, I started leaning into the chest strap after Brian's canopy course, which emphasised doing that very much (with harness drills and looking at your chest strap's length and whatnot). He didn't say anything about leaning back, other than "don't run out what you can't run out, slide it if you land too fast".
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I believe Brian said lean forward not back.
And there is a good reason why everyone says lean forward, and not back.

You want your CG above your feet when you land or even forward of your feet, that make taking a step easier.
If you run, do you lean forward or backwards?
Try running with your body behind your feet and you will understand why saying 'lean back at landing' is odd.

When you flare the canopy your body rotates and you are forward of the canopy, so leaning back at that point means you are even more leaned back.
Leaning forward means you compensate the rotation the canopy does to you.


And leaning forward or backwards in the harness does nothing to lineinputs.
You are connected to the canopy at the tree rings, that is a one point connection.
Whatever you do, the rings will just rotate to compensate your movements.

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Oh yes, I just realised I wrote "into the harness" when I meant "into the chest strap". I've edited my post now. And yes, exactly, it's about supporting your CG correctly, which I've also referred to in my original comment. Feet under your CG let you either run or slide, depending on how fast you touch down. Other arrangements don't. Not to mention that leaning back is unnecessary if you do your flare correctly, because if you do it, it pitches the canopy up and consequently lifts you, the pilot, up with canopy now slightly behind you (thanks to how the suspension lines work). So leaning back will only make you unstable, but it won't help the canopy pitch, it's already pitched from your initial input, and now you're only braking it, so you don't even have the airspeed to make changes.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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mathrick

Oh yes, I just realised I wrote "into the harness" when I meant "into the chest strap". I've edited my post now. And yes, exactly, it's about supporting your CG correctly, which I've also referred to in my original comment. Feet under your CG let you either run or slide, depending on how fast you touch down. Other arrangements don't. Not to mention that leaning back is unnecessary if you do your flare correctly, because if you do it, it pitches the canopy up and consequently lifts you, the pilot, up with canopy now slightly behind you (thanks to how the suspension lines work). So leaning back will only make you unstable, but it won't help the canopy pitch, it's already pitched from your initial input, and now you're only braking it, so you don't even have the airspeed to make changes.




Now you go it. Lean forward. You want to stay under your main. A common mistake is leaning back or letting the canopy lean you back when you land. At that point you are actually in front of the main. Stay under it by leaning forward.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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In all fairness, I believe mathrick has known all the time that he should be leaning forward, but used a "wrong" word in a former edit of his post. Even with the old word still read it as he understood.

GoHuskers however believes he can help the flare by leaning backwards And that the canopy dives when he leans forward.

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Unless you are putting significant force directly into your risers by pulling/pushing them, and therefore changing where your weight is being carried by them, how you sit on your harness will not change how your wing will fly (aerodynamics aside, but you guys aren't talking about laying completely horizontal). Your CG will always be right under your 3ring attachment point line. New age touchy-feely nonsense does not trump physics.
Remster

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CSpenceFLY

Careful man. You're gonna butt hurt some newbie that thinks they have invented a new sport.:D



But.... I look so cool with my chest strap undone laying prone forward in my harness as I'm about to skip along the sod. B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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