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snowlep

Too fast horizontally on landing

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I have about 75 jumps, the last 20 with a Sabre 170 loaded at about 1.25. Most of my landings were in moderate wind and no problems, but on my first low/no wind landing i couldn't slow it down enough so i ran a bit and then slid on a shin even though i probably should've kept running and would be ok. Then i realised i was leaving about 15cm of my brakes unused near the end of the flare that had quite a bit of power left in them. By the next weekend i'd bought a used Pilot 168 and made 2 jumps, it felt significantly slower in full flight and near the ground, and had two of the softest landings ever with a higher/slower and lower/faster flare respectively.

Which brings me back to yesterday when I did 2 jumps on the Sabre again. Low wind, flared low, pretty sure I used all the toggles could give length-wise, but since I went lower and put my legs behind and didn't have anything left in the flare to pull me up, cut my other shin on the grass this time. And the second, horor jump of yesterday. Thought my biggest problem was not trusting my legs to jog it off. Moderate wind. Straight in aproach and pulled my front risers to lose some distance before landing. This was at least 10-15 seconds before I started my flare so I'm not sure how much of the extra speed was left. I see I'm coming in fast as hell, do a complete flare at a normal height, nothing left and I'm still doing at least 30 km/h (almost 20 mph). Gymnastics ensued with a combination of running, sliding on my back and two front rolls through the risers.

I'm fine, but frustrated since I thought I had a eureka moment when I saw I wasn't finishing my flare a couple weekends ago and had had wonderful landings since then on both canopies, and now ended up mowing the grass again, especially seeing jumpers on much smaller canopies come in at twice the speed and barely having to jog at the end.

Any suggestions or thoughts? I think after the first part, when I lose vertical speed, I might start the second part too gradually and early instead of waiting to feel the loss in lift and then pulling a little faster. I hope I can get someone to film my landings so I can see exactly what I'm doing.

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90 jumps wonder on a Sabre2 170 @ 1.1 here. It did nasty things to me at first, now I've got coaching and we're much better friends. Is your canopy a Sabre or Sabre2? What did you fly before?

First off, if you have more horizontal speed than you know what to do with, do not try to run it out. You will do a scorpion and break your face and/or neck. Sliding with one leg forward (not both, as then you have a higher risk of a hard slam onto your butt and a broken coccyx) is the right thing to do for excessive speed.

Are you doing a two-step (or rather, multiphase) flare? You want to stab the first part, ie. bring the toggles down to the point where your flight is level, then stop there. You should feel it level off, and it needs to be quick. The reason for that is that if you stab it out, you change the pitch of the canopy without reducing the airspeed too much. Airspeed is what you use to control your canopy and generate the lift that keeps your descent rate low, so you want to have as much of it as possible until the last possible moment.

The second phase is braking, which is where you shed off the speed, and that happens more gradually with deeper input. On a Sabre2, you really want to go as deep as you can without stalling it (it's a problem I'm working on myself, because I tend not to use the last 10-15cm). If you can't stall it with a single wrap of the lines on your wrists, you might have your brakes too long. Talk with a rigger.

You also want to have the right body position. Chest strap maximally loose (get it extended if you can't at least slip your shoulders out of the harness without undoing it), slider down. That lets the canopy spread out more, giving you a flatter, aerodynamically better wing. Get used to undoing your chest strap and adjusting yourself to sit better in the harness once you have a good wing overhead and have brought the slider down (and scanned for the traffic!). On landing, lean out of your harness into the chest strap, legs under your centre of mass, with one foot leading for the run. That way you can either run it out or slide it out, depending on how it goes. Pull your toggles down along your body to below your butt.

Lastly, no wind landings are simply tough, and Sabre2 @ 1.25 is not a kind canopy for someone with 75 jumps. At 1.1 I got mine loaded at the very top of the recommended level for new jumpers in Denmark, and I'm happy I didn't try to push it. The fact is it was simply too much of a canopy for me at first, and I didn't land it, it landed me. If you can't land it well, upsize or switch to a more docile canopy, like Pulse.

P.S. Consider adding some paragraph breaks, they make long blocks of text much easier to read :)
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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John LeBlanc told me, stop running and fly the machine.

Just when you are ready to give up, plop down and start running....instead, pick your feet up out of the way, and push the toggles another 4-6 inches and fly the machine further.

it will slow down.

This is not an easy exercise and I had to retrain myself from a bad habit over 30 years to a new habit that I have to consciously walk thru now on every jump


so practice it.

Also be sure that your canopy is trimmed properly and brakes set properly. You cannot flare to full flare if you steering lines are not set properly.

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Thank you for your replies. The Sabre in question is a Sabre1 (DOM '97), my canopy is the a Pilot 168 ZPX (DOM 2010) I have only 2 jumps on (best landings ever), but yesterday I went back to the rented Sabre because I don't have an AAD on my rig (w/ the Pilot) and it's DZ policy.

I'm pretty sure my flares yesterday were more dynamic (one fluid motion, just changing the speed of it throughout) and I think that might've been the problem because that doesn't change the pitch of the canopy in the braking phase as much, slowing it down less, right?

As far as sliding, it wouldn't be any problem if I was anticipating the problem again and it wasn't so hot. I'm definitely losing the shorts for my next jumps, especially since my shins are now symmetrical.

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The landings I had on the Sabre before yesterday, especially when I figured out the bottom 15cm, felt more like what looks to be happening in this video at around 1:25 with the yellow canopy. Whereas yesterday it might have been more like the blue canopy at 1:10 (doesn't pitch back as much so I couldn't swing in front of it, which would subsequently bleed off horizontal speed as the canopy "catches up" to me).

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You just need to get your wing to flare (first part of the 2-stage flare) and then let it bleed the speed as it flies level and finish off with a strong flare that uses all of the brakes...

Also, better stay off the fronts until you can land real nice without them in any weather...

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The thing with skimming the ground with lower legs tucked back, shins just above and parallel to the ground, looks nice when combined with a final pop up and then "extending the landing gear". Cool but rather on the advanced side at your level.

As you discovered it isn't much good if there is any doubt about the controlability of the landing. Better to keep those feet forward and partially under you -- in case you do drop down and need to protect your spine, or you do have extra speed and need to slide the landing...

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mathrick

1. you might have your brakes too long. Talk with a rigger.

2. On landing, lean out of your harness into the chest strap, legs under your centre of mass, with one foot leading for the run.



1. My wife had the same problem and couldn't get the tail to cup enough to cook off horizontal speed. Not really sure if single-wrap stall is the gold standard of testing but if someone films you land, you should see the tail cupping and get plenty of educated opinions from the video.

2. You shouldn't lean into the chest strap throughout the landing. If your weight is forward, your wing will be forward so your pitch will be steeper while you're flaring. At some point you want your weight more on the rear set of lines to aid in the flare process since it gets the wing more overhead and decreases your pitch. For me I lean into my chest strap on final and shift my weight back as I begin to flare.

I suggest you read the Parachute and its Pilot. The author explains canopy dynamics and breaks it down with illustrations that really increase your understanding of canopy design and flight. A great read and worth every penny of it. Best of Luck

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snowlep

I have about 75 jumps, the last 20 with a Sabre 170 loaded at about 1.25.


Well, a bigger parachute is recommended for your experience level. That would help.

Have some one video your landings, then have an experienced canopy instructor debrief them. They should be able to spot where you can improve.

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snowlep

I'm pretty sure my flares yesterday were more dynamic (one fluid motion, just changing the speed of it throughout) and I think that might've been the problem because that doesn't change the pitch of the canopy in the braking phase as much, slowing it down less, right?



Well, it doesn't change the pitch much, instead just slowing you down. But because the flight path is as it were before, with a steep descent and less lift generated (because it now flies slower), the total slowdown is much less before you touch down. Though I haven't flown Sabre1, and not every canopy is equally sensitive to the way you flare (that's really what the "flare power" means). A flatly trimmed canopy like Pulse can be successfully flared in one go because its descent speed is low, and it starts with a higher angle of attack, so pitching further it won't help much with lift generation. But I expect Sabre1 to be more similar to Sabre2 than Pulse. Pilot is also in the same steeper-gliding family, so you would probably run into the same problems eventually.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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Guys please keep comparisons that have no effect on the situation (openings) out of this. Sure CSpence called the Sabre a pos, but I'd rather focus on the 17 year old part instead; could so many jumps affect the material and make it more porous degrading the flare?

Anyway, next week I'm looking at making at least 10 jumps on my Pilot and seeing how it goes, but from the first 2 jumps I made I'm expecting no stress whatsoever. Nonetheless, I can't believe I've had such a different experience landing two canopies of relatively similar design, both with good lines, except if 17yo fabric of one vs the still slippery fabric of the 5yo one could have such an effect.

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different style canopy but my triathlon is about 17ish years old I have stood up my last 70ish jumps and had no problems flaring. I find it is all about finding the 'timing' of that canopies flare but my experience is very limited

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Quote

I'd rather focus on the 17 year old part instead; could so many jumps affect the material and make it more porous degrading the flare?



You only stated the age and not how many jumps the canopy has.
Age and number of jumps are not the only factor. Where was the canopy packed (indoors/outdoors), beach jumps, packed in the dirt, left out in the sun. All these things can degrade the material and reduce the flare.

Ask a qualified rigger to look at it and she/he should be able tell you if the canopy is OK or not.
Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

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Also, pilots flare very differently than sabre 2s. I have 400 jumps on a pilot, 100 on a sabre 2 and they land VERY differently.

In my experience the sabre 2 should have a much stronger and more reactive flare. I don't know how different a sabre 1 would be to that. if it doesn't, I would definitely have a rigger look at it.

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skydivecat

Also, pilots flare very differently than sabre 2s. I have 400 jumps on a pilot, 100 on a sabre 2 and they land VERY differently.

In my experience the sabre 2 should have a much stronger and more reactive flare. I don't know how different a sabre 1 would be to that. if it doesn't, I would definitely have a rigger look at it.



The Sabre has a harder toggle input that's more sensitive (so tougher to pull but more reactive), and the main rigger at the DZ let me use it.

The Pilot's toggles seem to have some slack in them at the top and are softer throughout, however the canopy itself seems noticeably slower at full speed (both high up and near the ground) and gave me two very soft landings with great flares in similar wind conditions as the Sabre with which I'm coming in faster with at least a little fear.

True, I don't know how many jumps on the Sabre but I'm assuming a lot, while the Pilot has less than 300 w/ original lines that my rigger said are in great shape.

It probably is down to timing the flare and possible that I wasn't finishing it. Also now that I think of it I didn't do any practice flares up high on Sunday, I thought I'd had it learned so was trying other things.

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your wing loading is aggressive for your jump numbers. the tips you are getting in this thread and those that you should be getting at your home DZ should be done on a larger canopy. I would suggest a 190.

Just some food for thought. Good luck.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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snowlep

Guys please keep comparisons that have no effect on the situation (openings) out of this. Sure CSpence called the Sabre a pos, but I'd rather focus on the 17 year old part instead; could so many jumps affect the material and make it more porous degrading the flare?

Anyway, next week I'm looking at making at least 10 jumps on my Pilot and seeing how it goes, but from the first 2 jumps I made I'm expecting no stress whatsoever. Nonetheless, I can't believe I've had such a different experience landing two canopies of relatively similar design, both with good lines, except if 17yo fabric of one vs the still slippery fabric of the 5yo one could have such an effect.



http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=Sabre%201%20hard%20opening&sb=score&mh=25

You asked what was wrong with a Sabre and then you don't want to hear the reply. Good luck and have fun learning.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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I jumped a very out of trim Sabre 1 from jump 45-122 and was having a very hard time on the landings, I wasn't getting much out of the flare. I thought it was me (and granted with my jump numbers of course I wasn't doing everything perfectly) and was trying to adjust my flare timing. Jump 122 I was experimenting with flaring higher and ended up breaking my ankle on a hard landing. I would recommend making sure the canopy is in good shape by getting inspected by a rigger. Now that I'm on a new canopy my landings are fine. Good luck.

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snowlep

Thank you for your replies. The Sabre in question is a Sabre1 (DOM '97), my canopy is the a Pilot 168 ZPX (DOM 2010) I have only 2 jumps on (best landings ever), but yesterday I went back to the rented Sabre because I don't have an AAD on my rig (w/ the Pilot) and it's DZ policy.



See if your DZ will allow you to put your main into their rental. You will need someone's help swapping it out. Its worth learning how to do.

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DBCOOPER

For one thing they have been known to hurt people real bad on opening. I'm one of them.


there should be a ceremonial burning of ALL Sabre1 canopies. (This is from a guy who jumps a Stiletto, also 20 year old design.)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Squeak

***For one thing they have been known to hurt people real bad on opening. I'm one of them.


there should be a ceremonial burning of ALL Sabre1 canopies. (This is from a guy who jumps a Stiletto, also 20 year old design.)

Quite a few wingsuiters would take issue with that. The Sabre 1 is an excellent WS canopy. :P

I'm more concerned at the OP's wingloading @ 75 jumps. Seems pretty aggressive.

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